A new podcast from the award-winning body hair and care brand Flamingo, hosted by author, curator, and critic Kimberly Drew. Each week on Unruly, we unpack the quiet ways women’s bodies are commodified, defined, and regulated by social media, the medical profession, the beauty industry, and more. Then we name them, out loud — because information is power, and your body is your business. New episodes drop on Wednesdays.
Episode 6 Transcript | Don't Hem Us In
Hey, this is just a heads up that this episode includes mention suicide. Please take care while listening or reading.
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RAVEN: “I would always make sure that any time I left the house, let me try to make sure that people don’t focus on my size or kind or… and kind of dimming my light into the corner even though you know I may have just won a national championship over the weekend but now I’m back in this space and I just feel small again. But as my journey went on and kind of opened up my freedom within myself of what my limits and bounds were and could be. And not really boxing myself into what I feel like the world necessarily would accept me as.”
Kimberly Drew: When women were first allowed to participate in the Olympic Games they competed in ankle length, long-sleaved dresses. The year was 1900. And, allegedly, the Olympic committee worried that women’s bodies– if seen– would distract the male athletes. We’ve come such a long way since then, but it has been a long haul. For years, women athletes have had to fight tooth and nail for uniforms that suited them –physically, medically, and emotionally.
Enter: Olympian Raven Saunders, the charismatic shotputter... she won the silver medal at the 2020 Tokyo Olympics, throwing an impressive distance of 19.79 meters. And she did it wearing a hulk mask over her mouth and nose…with half her hair dyed green, the other half purple, while sporting sprinter panties and twerking in celebration. In this moment, Raven unapologetically defied convention. Then, at the medal ceremony, she went one step further… Raven solemnly put her arms over her head in the shape of an ‘X.’ Here’s how she explained it to NBC’s Today Show afterwards…
RAVEN: “An X pretty much represents the intersection of where all people who are oppressed you know meet. I’m a Black female, I’m queer, I talk about mental health awareness, I deal with depression, anxiety and PTSD a lot. So me personally I represent being really at that intersection.
That gesture could have been deemed a violation of the International Olympic Committee’s rules against protests and demonstrations. But for Raven, her beliefs off the field are just as important to her as performance in her sport.
I’m your host Kimberly Drew. And From Flamingo this is Unruly: Where we take the quiet ways women’s bodies are commodified, defined, regulated and we name them– out loud. We wanna educate and support each other. Because your body is your business.
This is Episode 6: Don’t Hem Us In
Joining me is Raven Saunders to talk more about how she expresses her multiple identities through her dress – both on and off the field.
Kimberly: Hello.
Raven: How are you doing?
Kimberly: Welcome to Unruly.
Raven: Thank you for having me.
Kimberly: I'm just beyond excited to have you on the show. I speak on behalf of my entire family. We all love and adore you. A lot of people joke about being like a football family or a basketball family, but we're very much a track and field family. Love it. And you are a celebrity amongst all of us. So it’s a tremendous honor to talk to you today.
Raven: Thank you. Thank you. And I'm happy to be here. Happy to talk to you.
Kimberly: I was a shot putter. I am not good at it.
Raven: Okay gang.
Kimberly: So, I'm excited to talk about the sport. This podcast is largely about women's issues and the ways in which our bodies are regulated, viewed, scrutinized. I think a lot of times, especially women athletes, fall under a particular scrutiny because, of course, it is one of the few ways within society that we get to see women being strong, where we get to see women being powerful.
Raven: Oh, completely. Completely. And it's, it’s definitely something that I've had to navigate being, you know, of a bigger stature of an athlete and then being a woman, but still wanting to be appealing to myself and then trying to figure out what it was that I wanted to wear. And you go and you look at shot putters, and from my view, it was long tights and, you know, long sleeve t shirts, whereas you go to the sprinters and they get to be running down the lane and, you know, a bikini ding there. And just being able to witness that freedom was beautiful to watch with those women and really wanting to kind of encapsulate that and bring that along to the throws as well.
Kimberly: Yeah to be able to bring that flair and that flavor in a way, because of course it's like equally an esthetic question and also one of performance. But before we get too far into it. Can we talk about when you got into track and field? What was your introduction to the sport and when you started and found yourself doing the shot put event?
Raven: My intro into the sport was through basketball. My basketball coach, he was the head coach of the track team and he told me he could help me get better on the basketball court. We didn't win state in basketball my freshman year, but when it came to track and field, I picked up the individual shot put title. From then on, me and shot put were super locked in like, it's my baby.
Kimberly: Can you talk to me a bit about the different transitions in your career and how uniforms played a role? Because, of course, like not only are you maturing as an athlete, but the world around you is changing as well. Whether that be the stages that you're performing on or the ways in which as you came more into the public eye. Can you talk me through that journey of how you were thinking about what it led up to and what you were wearing?
Raven: Earlier on, it was just a matter of what felt comfortable being in a space to where I wasn't fully in love with myself, just being bigger. I was about 260 to 280 pounds throughout my collegiate career.
Kimberly: Especially, yeah, like because people who are doing shot put just have a bigger build. Did you ever find yourself in a moment in your dress where you were hiding your body? Like, how did you contest with like, because of course, like you step out of the sport and then you're a person who has this build. Like, was that ever a part of your journey and how you were thinking about your body and the ways in which you dress yourself?
Raven: Completely, especially on like the outside. Like I would still try to like, do extra when it came to my style to try to hide my size, like, oh, well, she dresses like so, like she's not as big. I would always make sure that any time I left the house let me try to make sure that people don't focus on my size or really being self-conscious a lot of times and kind of dimming my light into the corner, even though, I may have just won a national championship over the weekend, but now I'm back in this space and I just feel small again. And that difference of highs and lows was really probably one of the toughest portions of the journey and really learning to love myself all around. But as my journey went on and going into Tokyo and really being enticed by the Internet to wear the sprinter panties, it kind of opened up my freedom within myself of what my limits and bounds were and could be, and not really boxing myself into what I feel like the world necessarily would accept me as.
Kimberly: When I think about Tokyo and I think about athletes, it was one of the first competitions at that scale where we really got to know you guys through your social media presence. And I think that you really led the charge on being super interactive with your fans, followers and detractors. And I wonder if you could talk about the moment where you found yourself in an unsuspected outfit, how that came to be.
Raven: Going into Tokyo. That really was like a whirlwind because I was supposed to do my standard speed suit. But one joke on Twitter led to me having to wear sprinter panties in the final. I was like, hey, it's going to be hot in Tokyo. I think I'm gonna wear some sprinter panties or whatever or something like that. And next thing you know, a couple hundred people liked it and everybody's like, yeah, you should do it, you should do it, you should do it. And I was just like, all right, cool. I guess so. But I waited and the final just to kind of throw people for a loop.
Kimberly: Yeah, you're like, I've already done so well. Please watch me work.
Raven: Yeah. You know, show off this body a little bit.
Kimberly: No, I love it. I'm a big fan of the twerking videos. I’m like this is it. This is life, like it’s good to let that go. Like, so much of our trauma is stored in our hips as well. So thinking about being able to release that wiggle to quote be is major.
Raven: Nah you have to, you have to.
Kimberly: Who were you talking to at that time and what were some of the bits of feedback that you got? Especially, I'm thinking from coaches or from management, because of course at the place that you're operating from is like the highest caliber of sport, period, like right on Earth. So the regulations that you're up against are at the highest stakes.
Raven: Mm hmm. I feel like for me, I've always been one to kind of want to push the bounds and limits. So when it came to what I decided to wear, I would kind of bounce ideas off of maybe close friends or like, a coach or whatever. But I would mention it in a way of like a I'm about to do this, but what do you think?
Kimberly: Ask for forgiveness kind of vibe.
Raven: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, listen, that is one thing that I stand on. I stand on. And thankfully it's worked out every step of the way. And looking back, I'm thankful that I've made the decision to stand on what I believe in and what I think will actually work and pop off.
Kimberly: So when you're not on the field and you're thinking about, of course, because you know, you’re a personality at this point. You are one of the most visible people in your space, period.
Raven: Thank you.
Kimberly: Do you find yourself when you're thinking about day to day, whether that be on tiktok or in your, you know, daily life, are you thinking about these kinds of norms of what an athlete's supposed to look like? And how are you finding yourself kind of contesting with them, maybe breaking them?
Raven: I love pushing the bounds. So whatever people expect the athlete to look like. Which is why I feel like I stay true to constantly keeping grills in my mouth. Because you'll see it but then you have a conversation with me, and it'll change your whole entire perspective. Or I might wear like a nice little hippie kind of leotard type thing and, you know, turn around, and now I'm like, rapping. Or just really constantly spinning and changing and pushing the bounds of people's ideas. I feel like that's been my biggest thing is enjoying the fact that I'm not what people expect and constantly trying to bring that.
Kimberly: There is a long history of black female athletes setting the standard for pushing back against athletic norms. Who are some of the people that you were looking to in track and field as idols?
Raven:m Oh man. When you look at style and watching like Flo-Jo, just how many different things that she did and how she kept switching it up, the different types of uniforms, and then trying to figure out how I can incorporate my own style into, our standard set uniform that especially now has little room for wiggle room.
Kimberly: I want to talk about Flo-Jo, because when I think of women in sport and style-
Raven: She’s the pinnacle.
Kimberly: And also, unfortunately, criticism when it could be celebration or when it could be. You know what I'm saying? It's like there's room. Black women just innovate Black style just innovates and pushes the world forward. That's just indisputable. But when I think about that and close my eyes, I think of Flo-Jo. And I wonder for, if you could talk to us a bit about Flo-Jo, because not everybody's familiar and it would be great to hear from, from your lens how, how you would introduce Flo-Jo to someone who might not know.
Raven: Flo-Jo is the fastest women's 100 meters sprinter of all time in a history of 100 meters sprinters. Her style and grace was something that was unmatched and unparalleled up until we have somebody like a Sha'carri Richardson who's able to step into that throne. She would step out of the bounce from a one leg long to no leg tracksuit with the hoodie on it. She really laid the groundwork for what style, grace and speed combined could be. Like that's Flo-Jo.
Kimberly: That’s the perfect, perfect, perfect segue into talking about your own imprint as another Black queer person. Watching you step into your own almost was like this healing of an inner child type thing for me because I was a kid who grew up watching the W for example, and really trying to read into and get these signals of queerness from players and and having watched them really struggle. And so I want to talk to you about as a visibly queer person, there is a different set of considerations that are put on you and your dress. And of course, you're in an event where even the most feminine athletes, for lack of better phrasing, are dressed in a more traditionally masculine way. And I wonder for you, when you were thinking about on and off the field what some of those pressures might be for you, I'm sure that there are moments in your life where you are forced to dress other ways, and I wonder how that relates to your adult life and your professional life?
Raven: Completely. Being queer, I remember going through my feminine to masculine transition of wanting to be masculine and the initial pushback of my mother being like, nah. She was okay with the queer daughter. But the masculine side was something that initially she was just hesitant towards. So I feel like for me in a way, like constantly having to battle that, led me to pushing back and suppressing my feminine side to a degree for a while when it came to style and dress and, you know, wanting to push a maybe more of a androgynous type of direction. And I really feel like talking to my mom and my mom seeing it and like the conversations we had, the laughs that we had of it. I feel like it was really like a moment of healing as well.
Kimberly: In just a moment we’ll get more specific with Raven’s unique dress code– in particular those Hulk and Joker masks… Normally, this is where you’d hear an ad – and honestly, maybe you’d skip through it. But instead, we’ve got a story from a nonprofit supporting women's bodily autonomy and mental health. It’s one of the organizations that Flamingo donates to as part of its mission to “keep your body in mind.”
<AD BREAK>
Kimberly: There's just so many outlets that you're using on your body to tell your story. I'm thinking, of course, of your hair. I'm thinking, of course, of your masks. And I wanted to talk about, specifically the mask, because it's topical in, in this moment we’re in..
Raven: Yeah.
Kimberly: When did you start wearing the masks? When did the flare for the masks come in?
Raven: I started wearing them in 2018, actually, like long before COVID became a thing. But the reason why I stopped was because, like you said, rules. I asked a couple officials rules-wise if my mask would be approved and no one could give me a clear answer. So I just sat it on the shelf for a while. And literally for about two years I had a couple of matches sitting there and then COVID happened, and the Olympic year was coming around and I was like, oh my god, it's about to go down. So yeah, I was just like I'm going ahead, put the mask on for a second, go about my day and it worked. And it was very scary and intimidating. Once I actually looked at how crazy my eyes looked like a sinister smile or that like Hulk glare on the other one. So yeah.
Kimberly: Was there a particular statement that you wanted to make in the ways in which you were decorating yourself?
Raven: Oh, absolutely. The Joker- that mask for me represented like smile and outside, but like what you have on the inside, showing people that, that two sides but in a competitive way. I'm a true, true competitor like when I think back to the eighties and nineties like Kobe and Jordan's like trash talking game, that's how I see competitions. But at a certain point in my sport, it's been a shift in like I'll go out and everybody trying to like talk and you know, they're laughing and you know, they all buddy buddy. And I'm like, yo it’s only three spots on this team. Like, I don't got time to chit chat with y’all, but I'm a smile in your face regardless. So, that, the Joker for me was that especially in the prelims and then the Hulk mask for me was like, all right, it's time to smash. Turning that transition. Now it's time to end it. It's the end all be all.
Kimberly: As an athlete, you know, you guys are drawn from this moment of intense competition into these pressers. And when you're talking to the press afterwards, does it bother you how many questions that you're getting about your appearance and how do you manage that?
Raven: It depends. energy is big and you can kind of tell sometimes by the interviewer or like where a question is being directed or, you know, what type of article they may write based upon what you say.
Kimberly: Have there been particular points in your journey where there has been pressure to be less unruly or to be more quote-unquote, like normalized in your appearance.
Raven: That almost led me to committing suicide…like that was the biggest thing when I actually looked at the overall journey as to why it was that I was struggling and it was because I was trying to fit in a space that wasn't necessarily meant for me. Being at the University of Mississippi, being a young black queer person on a college campus that we have KKK rallies at least once or twice a year. So it was just like once I perceived the environment that I was in, you know, I tweet certain things voicing like different frustrations, and now I'm being told to take it down because it didn't reflect well in the university voicing certain opinions about my particular needs and needs of people that might fit under the umbrella that I fit under and just feeling like certain things would fall on deaf ears. And I was happy once I learned to just keep fighting back. Just keep fighting back.
Kimberly: And I can't imagine the ways in which you were just policed by folks.
Raven: Oh, completely. Completely. And then just me being me, I stand out just because. So I feel like in that moment I learned a lot. Granted I wish I didn't have to, you know, experience certain things. But the lessons that I've learned, I feel like is for me to be able to help other people navigate through certain spaces and things like that. And when I say to people like that is just keep being loud and keep being you, because at that point they had to accept me. I'm winning titles and championships and scoring points for the team and coaches, getting bonuses and stuff like, they have to accept you, especially if you're doing what you need to do.
Kimberly: It's such an interesting tension. It's very like, like Olivia Pope type vibe. Like you have to be twice as good. Like, you don’t just do your thing or experiment. It's like you got to have, like you can wear gold teeth, but you have to have a gold medal.
Raven: Oh, listen, it's that. That is it. That is it. Once I learned that recipe, yeah, it was good. But you have to learn and pay attention to it to be able to know how to navigate it and know when it's time to, like, fight against the system and when it's time to take a step back. Being smart about picking your battles.
Kimberly: I wonder for, especially for aspiring athletes or people who are on their athletic journeys. What do you hope to, to show them, to exemplify for, for folks who are looking for options for themselves?
Raven: Uh really acceptance of yourself first, because that's been my biggest thing. Because once I learned to accept myself, I've been able to project myself out more into the world. Two is the being able to be outspoken about it and not care if somebody tells you to shut up because they don't care. They don't value you or value your opinion or value your work. Being able to constantly buck back and keep fighting back and keep standing up with style, you know, and it's okay if you get knocked down, but being able to get back up is really been my biggest thing and being unapologetic to the people that don't want you to get back up for getting back up.
Kimberly: I know that one of your missions is, I mean, I know that your missions are vast, whether that be a conversation about sport, whether that be a conversation around mental health. And you, I think more so than some of your peers have really taken the platform and the podium as a space to make statements. But I wonder if you could talk a bit about the thought process going into those moments because the risks are considerably high.
Raven: I feel like the athlete side of me has given me that go big or go home type mentality when it comes to things. And that level of extreme for me sometimes also is shown in my humanitarian side of wanting to fight and do better for other people or speak up for other people. Just because I remember it was moments where I couldn't defend myself that I wish that someone would have, you know. So the thought process going into that, it's really kind of taken me out of the situation. I always try to separate what could happen to me because I'm thinking about the hundreds, if not thousands of people affected by that demonstration or a podium stand. And that really was conveyed to me by John Carlos when I met him. And he told me, you got to understand it's bigger than you, that you got to be willing to sacrifice everything. And are you willing to sacrifice everything in the name of what you say you believe in? So once I came to that decision that yeah, I had just signed up to a big sponsorship, bigger than I ever had it didn't matter. It didn’t matter. So I raised my arms in the form of an X on a podium stand. And for the X itself exercise of a circle, we Team USA track and field had decided would represent the intersection to where all people who are oppressed would meet, no matter what it is that you were oppressed from.
Kimberly: For listeners who might not be familiar with who John Carlos is, could you give us like a little bit of context?
Raven: So in 1968, John Carlos and Tommie Smith, they took to the podium stand, and during the playing of the national anthem they both raised their fists up with a black glove on it to signify black power and the unjust treatment in America still of Black people during that time. That just because the Civil Rights movement, you know, a Civil Rights Act had been passed, that there were still a lot of unjust things to happen in the country. And they were stripped of their Olympic medals. They were sent home poor, cashless, struggled to get jobs, all because they decided to speak up and stand up for people.
Kimberly: Right. And of course, it becomes one of the most powerful images in the history of sport.
Raven: Very much so. It really is. And being a historian and watching those different moments, I was studying so many different Black women and women in general that were just like fighters and trailblazers. It was just so inspiring to me, like, why? Why wouldn't I? And people in America were like asking, like, what were you going to do? Are we going to not go like, we shouldn't go like similar things to that extent? But I just knew that I was the only one that was willing to risk every single thing and put every single thing that I had on the line for it.
Kimberly: No, I think it's, it's that thing of mutual respect where we're constantly in these kinds of moments where there are difficult decisions, to say the least, to be made. And when you feel empowered to do it, you kind of just got to. Like when that little, you know, little voice comes in is like, it's your time.
Raven: No seriously I remember sitting with the previous two time Olympic gold medalist who had won bronze and like sitting there looking back at her and they kept coming through and I just kept looking back and I was like, oh, god, it's going to happen. It's going to happen. And I remember like the end of the Chinese national anthem was coming, and I was like. I'm gonna do it.
Kimberly: I was at Nike HQ a few months ago and they're leading up to the Women's World Cup and all these preparations and innovations within the tech that they were building out for women athletes. And they did this really wide survey. A lot of, especially the footballers, were like the first 35 minutes of the match. I'm thinking about if I'm going to bleed through my uniform. And that became this thing where you're like, you’re supposed to be able to go and do your thing. And like soccer, football games are bad long like that should be the last thing on your mind. But of course, it presents this distraction. Yeah. And I wonder for you what some of the ways in which for your sport within your body, you're thinking about dress.
Raven: It's it's so many different variations. And that's why like having had been under the Nike umbrella, that's one thing I was happy about was that every time we had a team or whatever to ask our opinions and they start to tier and tailor a lot more things to the women. For instance, we had the tights that didn't have an adjustment string, but you had a lot of women, especially on the outside, that our butts, you know, they a little thicker, our thighs are a little thicker, but then sometimes you get sent away so it's a little smaller and people were having problems with that. So functionality of it all. So now I have to wear long tights or some basketball shorts that are oversized and bring them up. When it comes to like weather and stuff like that, certain ones were too thin, like way too thin because it gets cold out there. So even the leggings and things like that. Sometimes I pull out a Nike kit from two or three years ago just because functional wise, like I'm able to stretch, able to loosen up. And I also if a shape’s nice to my body, you know.
Kimberly: You’re like I’m a city girl after all and so…
Raven: Ayyy just a little bit, just a little bit!
Kimberly: I love it. And I'm actually so thankful for the way that this conversation has gone down for this episode, because I think there's a lot of ways in which conversations about the ways that our bodies are regulated can be almost exclusively lensed from the other. And I appreciate you sharing so candidly about your own self determination because it sounds like you from such a beautiful space and a set of experiences, good and bad, or like at the end of the day, I'm going to be me.
Raven: Right? Because somebody my size should not have on sprinter panties. If you let the world tell it.
Kimberly: Well, you never know. You never know. Sometimes the yams have to be put on display.
Raven: Ay you know, it was hot out there. I had to go and roast them a little bit.
Kimberly: Thank you so much. Appreciate your time, your candor and the way that you inspire so many of us. Big hearts from the studio. Thank you for being with us on Unruly.
Raven: Thank you for having me. Raven Hulks on is out, baby.
KIMBERLY: As a retired shotputter myself and long-time sports fan… Raven is the exact type of athlete and leader the sports landscape needs. She’s challenged norms and expectations at the highest levels of sport – where scrutiny on women is unnerving and largely unnecessary. Her bold, creative choices, humanitarian stands, and her willingness to show the world exactly who she is… is worthy of a shelf full of medals .
If you dig in to express yourself exactly as you’d want to, I think perhaps you would find that you’re maybe even….. A bit more….. Unruly than you thought.
I’m Kimberly Drew… for more about today’s guest and a transcript of the episode, along with more resources visit shopflamingo DOT com SLASH unruly podcast.
Unruly is a podcast created by Anna Wesche and produced by Pineapple Street Studios in collaboration with Flamingo. Our associate producer is Marialexa Kavanaugh. Our lead producer is Natalie Brennan. Our mid episode profiles are produced by Sophie Bridges. Our managing producer is Kamilah Kashanie. Our editor is Darby Maloney. Our Head of Sound & Engineering is Raj Makhija. Our Senior Audio Engineers are Pedro Alvira and Marina Paiz. This episode was Mixed by Davy Sumner. Our Assistant Audio Engineers are Jade Brooks and Sharon Bardales who also gave scoring assistance. Our Executive Producers are Je-Anne Berry and Aggi Ashagre. Our Music is from Epidemic Sounds.
