Welcome to Unruly Season 2

A podcast from Flamingo and Audacy’s Pineapple Street Studios

At Flamingo, we know that women deal with a lot: the expected, unexpected, and everything in between. That’s why we created Unruly. Season 1 was all about navigating a world that loves to categorize, analyze, and discuss women’s bodies; Season 2 has the same spirit but a different bent. Instead of talking about regulation, we’re talking about conversation.

Because we believe that if women are talking about it, it’s important. Whether we’re discussing dating in a recession, the way TikTok is shaping girlhood, consumer capitalism, or how to survive that annual girls trip, we’re giving women the opportunity to be their truest, most flamboyant selves. New episodes drop on Wednesdays.

INTRO:

Hey, guys. I'm Anna, and this is Unruly. We're here today with New York Times reporter Alicia Haridasani Gupta, who covers news, culture, and formally women's health and health inequities. She's reported on everything from how IUD pain is treated within the medical system, the shape of Barbie's feet, something I am deeply interested in, and very relevant to our discussion today, cycle thinking. Alicia, welcome. It's so great to have you on the show. Thank you so much for having me. Awesome.

Anna: I think just to start us out, so for everyone listening and watching, would you mind defining cycle syncing as it's most commonly being used by like sports teams and people on the internet? 

Alisha: There is, okay, so there are four phases to your menstrual cycle, right? There is the follicular, there is the ovulation, there's luteal, there's menstruation. And there are different hormones at play in each phase of that cycle. The theory behind cycle thinking is that you plan your life around that natural rhythm of 28 days, those four different phases of your cycle. There are theories that, you know, in certain parts of the cycle you are more social, you are more outgoing, you're more creative, you are more energetic, and so therefore you can schedule certain things in phase of your cycle. There are other parts of the cycle, particularly just before you start menstruating, where you crave rest and you crave certain foods and you don't want to be as social as usual. And so the idea is that you just plan your life based on this biological rhythm that we have. Of course, we'll get into this later, but the science behind it, murky, but it is trendy, and I think it's it's interesting how the kind of conversation that it has started. 

Anna: When did you first really start noticing it as like a big trend? Like do we have a point of origin we can kind of trace it back to?

Alisha: Okay, so there is a person who wrote the book Cycle Sinking. She wrote the guidebook on this years ago. Elisa Vitti, I think her name is, yeah. But I don't think it reached the mainstream at the point when she published that book. It came into the mainstream, I would say two or three years ago, when I started seeing it on social. At that point, I scrolled past, I was like, okay, cool. It caught my attention when workout apps like Nike and Allo started releasing specific workouts for different phases of the cycle. You know, like luteal phase stretch, or follicular phase hit workout, you know? And I am on these workout apps, and to me that felt like it had fully crossed into the mainstream. I mean, how many people are using those apps, right? And when I started digging, I realized that a lot of this stuff was being used by professional athletes already.

Alisha:  Particularly in the U.S. Soccer players. That's when I first started hearing about it, yeah. These amazing, they had these winning streaks and they were saying that the secret was they follow their cycle and they do cycle thinking and I just thought, okay, now that I'm seeing it everywhere, it's time to report on it. I mean, the Google searches for it really peaked in 2023, but I was just looking yesterday. It hasn't gone down, it still trending. Like trending up, or is it consistent? It's sort of just consistent, it hasn't gone up. Like it hasn't gone beyond the peak. And the TikTok hashtag for it, it's got like almost a billion views. So it's not phasing out any times. It's not, yeah. 

Anna: You mentioned you saw on the application, on the workout applications, did you have any trouble getting it approved, like to talk, to actually like write an article about it or are you kind of just like. 

Alisha: Went for it. Because I was covering women's space, women's health space at that time, the minute you say this is getting almost a billion views on TikTok, it's like, you know, enough for our editors to say, what is that? Let's look into it, you now? It's not something I had to do a hard sell on. I did, it did take a lot of edits because of the science around it. Because, you we don't want to put something out there that is pseudoscience. The New York Times has specific standards. We have an ethics team. We have so many editors that look at that. And if they're sitting there thinking, this is not enough, that was the hard part. But then I think that's part of the story, isn't it? The lack of science is part of this story. 

Anna: Yeah, well, and I mean, I think I want to take a moment to kind of give you your flowers on an incredible piece you just published, which was around pain management, pain management standards for IUD insertions, those types of things. And I think that was is another example of something that was ignored and not under and under researched within the medical sphere for so long. But then after we were allowed about it for so along, people took notice. Do you think this is following a similar path? 

Alisha: I don't think that is going to follow that same path as the IUD pain management because there isn't sort of a medical institution that's gonna come out and endorse this or that's going to have, there's not gonna be a study of 1,500 women and all of them follow the same exact pattern and this is what we found, that's impossible. But what I wanna touch on is how The reason that I think cycle thinking as a concept is so sticky and so attractive is because without even knowing the term, without even understanding what actually the different phases are, I think women do this instinctively. Yeah. Right? Yeah. We, I mean, I personally prefer to do yoga just before my period. Like, I wanna stretch. I don't really wanna be running. For half an hour on the treadmill, you know? I don't wanna be lifting weights. I just kind of wanna stretch. I wanna gobble down a pizza. I don't wanna socialize. And so that's what cycle syncing tells us isn't anything so out of the ordinary and so radical, So it feels true. It feels instinctively correct. The other interesting thing that I find about this is that it's a really great way for women to learn and understand their cycle. You have to fundamentally understand that there are four phases and what's happening in each phase. And given that sex ed and education about your period is so abysmal, it's fascinating that women are out there saying, hey, I'm in my luteal phase, I don't wanna do this meeting. I mean. I mean, power to them, right? It is such an interesting moment in the conversation around menstruation, which for eons and eons has been so taboo, it has been stigmatized, it's seen as this dirty secret. I grew up in a culture where, when I was on my period, I was not allowed into holy spaces, and I was allowed to water plants, because I was seen as toxic, right. In the 1920s, there was... A scientist who did an entire study on whether flowers that are handled by menstruating women will die faster than handled by other people. This was published in scientific journals. That's crazy. And he found, yes, indeed, flowers that are handled menstruating woman do die faster because there are toxins on the skin of menstruating women. And this toxic substance was labeled menotoxins. Oh my God, sorry. Yeah, exactly. So for the longest time, having your period was seen as dangerous, as scary, as a risk to others, right? And here we are today. 

Anna: You're like, I am a risk to others when I'm on my-

Alisha: Exactly yeah I mean there is yeah I forget which what you're aware this was but there was a woman who actually went to court because she murdered her lover and in court she claimed well I was on my period oh my god. 

Anna: I was angry. That's so rough, because pardon me, it's like, yes, girl. I'm like, own it. And then I'm, like, ugh. [00:16:00][5.8]

Alisha: Oh I know, I know the stereotypes, oh no. But, okay, so because of menotoxins, we thought that periods are sort of this scary thing. And we think of it as this quirk of history, like, oh, 1920s, like the people didn't know anything. But when did we actually get the first ad for period products with red liquid instead of blue? 2017. Oh boy. Like not even 10 years ago. 

Anna: Right? That's so funny because I can picture the blue liquid. 

Alisha: It's so disgusting that we don't even want to see ads for the product that is supposed to address that problem. You know and so yes those theories are like wafting around culture for ages and ages and but it really has it remains it remains till this day and I think it's fascinating that we're having a conversation about different phases of the cycle and how we feel and what we want to do in those phases. That's quite unprecedented. 

Anna: Even just thinking about like, I know a lot of women in my life are like subscribing to this concept of cycle syncing. I think I have a couple co-workers who like, will say, oh, I'm in my luteal phase this week. And I'm like, and I don't, I know that it's potentially negative. That's the only thing I can associate with it right now with my current knowledge base. But every person who has a period, not all periods behave the same. Oh, yeah. Of course. And I can even say I have endometriosis. And one thing that I used to be on those 28-week birth control packets, and now I'm on a 21-week, they just have me skip that placebo week because they want the hormones to continue. Hopefully deterring pain that comes with with the condition but I so I can't totally do it you know as I am right now but but I mean I guess I guess that doesn't mean that nobody can you know.

Alisha: So that's the big thing about it, right? The big caveat that scientists who do wanna research this, and this is always the caveat that comes with any research into women's health, but it's that menstruation, it's tricky, it is different, you and I have different cycles. Sometimes my cycle is different this month than last month, right, it is very inconsistent. It just ebbs and flows how it wishes. And then also, I think the part that science around this really struggles to get at is like, what are we measuring? Are we measuring that you're gonna get personal best on the treadmill? You know, are we measure muscle mass? Are we measure, like how do you measure energy levels and creativity, how do measure that? It's really, really tough to pin down a study that can encompass what cycle syncing. Says. So yes, it might not apply to you because you're on a certain specific birth control. It might not applied to me because I have shorter periods, longer periods, whatever it is. 

Alisha: And that's kind of why there isn't really science around it and also like for me, I'm a parent, I have a baby, I wanna get 20 minutes of workout in, does it really matter to me that this one study of 12 professional athletes found that it helped them with their sprint? I mean, no, I just gonna do my workout whenever I get a spare moment, whether I'm in my luteal phase or follicular phase, I think that's the other, it's like, is it applicable to everyone? Yeah. Not really. 

Anna: Yeah, I guess kind of to follow on this thread a bit like based on your purport on your reporting How studied is it? Shaking your head no.

Alisha: It's kind of tough. Okay, so the thing with women's health, right? Everyone focuses on reproduction a lot. A lot of the studies focus on reproduction in cancers, right, related cancers. But then it's like, okay, there are some studies that find that the menstrual cycle affects your certain activity in the brain, and that's neuro, that's neurology, right, and then there's cardiology, and then, so it's not, there's no holistic. At women's health, right? Women's health the term refers to these very specific things and then cardiology, oncology and all of that, it's sort of different. 

Alisha: And that's why it's like, there could be a lot of studies on neurology and cycle and menstruation, but it falls into some different bucket. Yeah, okay. So it's really hard to look at all of the literature on this, and again, there isn't much, right? 

Anna: So almost like you're saying, obviously there's women's health, which again, focusing on a lot of reproduction type things, oncology, cardiology. Is it that people studying cardiology aren't factoring in the differences that a woman's body makes within that field? Or is it that... Women's health and the study of reproduction of women's health, et cetera, is just so separate. I guess I'm trying to think of what I'm trying to say. And maybe that's what I am hoping you'll help me explain. Like, obviously we study cardiology, but do we study Cardiology from a woman's perspective? Does that make sense?

Alisha: Yes and no. Okay, great. To answer your question. Which is fantastic for us, right? Like look at today, if we look at something like menopause. 

Alisha: A lot of people are coming to realize that menopause has an effect on your whole entire body, right? With the definition of menopause and the reason that it falls under gynecology is that, you know, your ovaries have run out of eggs, right? And so you're not producing the certain hormones that you need or that you were producing before. But then that means that your brain changes, your heart changes, your muscles change, your metabolism changes. Are they studied within gynecology? No, they're not. Right? And so it becomes this push and pull. I remember reporting on menopause and speaking to a gynecologist who's written a book on this, who's really been an advocate for sort of better and more research into menopause. And she goes, she has patients who come to her, who went to their cardiologist, and their cardiologists said, don't get on hormone therapy, it's not good for you. 

Alisha: Whereas the gynecologist said, well, I think you need to be on hormone therapy. And there is this idea that another doctor can dismiss the diagnosis of a gynecologist. You know, why, why do they think that? Like, why is that? There's this culture of, like, separating parts of your body when actually it's one cohesive thing. There's this... Lack of understanding of how your hormones and your reproductive organs and your menstruation cycle and lack of it affect the rest of your body and it's seen as like the least urgent part of your body, right? Like, okay, let's not increase your risk of cancer and stroke and whatever, but you're sitting there every day sweating. Being miserable. 

Anna: I mean I remember my mom just being absolutely miserable and it was around the time where they were like don't yep no HRT, no hormone replacement therapy. So yeah, I imagine what life would have been if it would have very different. And I think too like I again I mentioned I have endometriosis and I I mean it took god it took so long to get diagnosed with that and even to be officially diagnosed you can't be officially diagnosed unless you have invasive surgery which is what I had a year ago to have removed and I mean it took, I think the average time, and I'm probably gonna not say this exactly right, is almost like five to seven years to get properly diagnosed with endometriosis. It took me about five years I think. But the amount of just different tests I went through. Having like an upper GI where they like injects like the the dye into your veins and then at one point they're like Oh, it's just acid reflux and I mean It's kind of I have never felt so unseen. And I don't even wanna say ignored because it wasn't that I was being ignored. I just don't think I was being. I don't think that my discomfort mattered, you know? Like, it's not even about, I mean, if I had had something extremely serious, for example, like a aggressive form of cancer or something, like I think that's very different from just trying to help women be comfortable. 

Anna: I don't think cycle syncing fixes everything and we don't even know if it fixes anything right now But like would it be enough if it even just helped some people? 

Alisha: Would it be enough that women feel comfortable? I would say yes, because in my reporting, any time I've spoken to a woman about their health concerns, I have never once heard someone say they went to the doctor and they found a solution. Never once, right? And that same McKenzie report, they found that women spend 25% more of their lives in poor health than men do. And these are like sort of incremental things that add up in your life, right? It's not just like, oh, I'm gonna get cancer and somebody's gonna, you know. It is that bleeding heavy is a burden in your everyday life. Someone got fired from their job because they bled too heavily and onto an office chair. Okay, so yeah, and it's like, it's not about comfort, it's day-to-day life, being able to do day-today. I literally did that on a delta flight in these jeans. 

Anna: And these jeans are white. How did you get the stains off? 

Alisha:  Um Okay, we're living in a very weird time today, right? Fundamental truths that are substantiated by science are being questioned. Whereas pseudoscience has sort of seeped into our social feeds, our communities, and everywhere. So I do see lots of people making choices that are not based in science, and I'm not here to say, let's all sort of chuck vaccines and forget about it all. But honestly, endometriosis, like you said. Affects 10% of women, right? Iron deficiency affects a third of women. It's never diagnosed. Barely diagnosed. Is that what anemia is? Okay. Yeah, yeah. And like it becomes a problem when you become pregnant, but researchers are always saying like, we need to address it before you become pregnancy. Cause then your body is sort of in overdrive when you are pregnant. It's not good to just test it when you're pregnant. Yeah. Right? But we don't test it. UTIs, we don't understand. We don't understand why some women bleed heavier than other women, why some girls start their period so young compared to other girls, and these are all incremental things that make your life uncomfortable that are not taken seriously enough. I wanna blow your mind with this fact. I'm ready. Okay, there were, in 2015, there were five times more studies on erectile dysfunction. Than premenstrual syndrome. I should have known that was gonna come up, damn it. I mean, here we are, literally the discomfort of men is studied five times more than pre-menstrua pain, syndrome, depression, all of that. There was a trial where Viagra, Sildenafel, was shown to relieve menstrual pain and they stopped the research because there was no funding. So imagine. There's a drug that's already approved. It's super cheap. You can get insurance to cover it. You can, it's like pennies to get it. But no, we don't want to try it because it doesn't matter. Who cares about women menstruating and being in pain, right? So it does come back to your point of is comfort enough? Yes, I would say it is enough. A lot of women would say, it is enough. And again, I want to bring up that conversation we started earlier on the IUD pain, right? There were enough women who made a loud noise and like complained and put their foot down about the pain that they experienced when they were getting their IUDs that the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology said, okay, we hear you. We know there's no studies on effective ways to manage your pain. There isn't actually, it's sort of all mixed. But we're going to tell doctors to take your pain seriously anyway. And I think that's huge. For something that is seen as an ordinary, like quick in and out, not surgery, but procedure, you are going to take your pain seriously.

Anna: Which is back to, obviously not solving anything, but it's just, it's that baseline level of comfort being finally being prioritized. Even in this way. Do you think we'll keep trending that way? 

Alisha: So I want to take you, I want to give you a really classic example of this. In the 1980s, Procter& Gamble released a tampon called RELY, which was made from polyester and it was supposed to be so absorbent that you can just use one for your entire period, meaning you can leave it in there for days. Turns out that wasn't very healthy. It led to toxic shock syndrome, which can be fatal. So news of fatalities of related to this particular tampon started emerging, it was really feminist activists who demanded that it be taken seriously. So there are a bunch of women in Emanuel College who published the iconic book, Our Bodies, Ourselves in 1970. This book is radical, okay? They demanded that the FDA regulate period product they like really scrutinized period products and it is because of them that you have warnings on period products for toxic shock syndrome you know for like don't leave it in there for more than eight hours whatever it is Because they pressured the government And so I do think that we have a history of women refusing to accept discomfort, fatality, lack of research. They don't want that anymore. More so now. And so there is hope there in that it could lead to change. I don't know if institutionally people will respond in the way that ACOG did for IUDs, but I think just speaking about it, finding the right doctors, It's fine. I think it even pressures researchers to do that work, right? The conversation does change things. I'm thinking about the potential repercussions of people making life changes around of unsubstantiated science. And this being like somewhat of an online trend that I know is happening right now, and again, is something that's more prevalent in professional sports, which I actually think is a little bit comforting, because... They pay those people so much money, to an extent, not necessarily women, whole other topic. But hopefully they would be wanting to invest in things that they really believed in. What do you think that this reveals about... 

Alisha:  Time we're in. The fact that women are making all these decisions unsubstantiated by science, changing their life around this idea. I think we've been doing that for centuries. We've been giving birth before obstetrics was a thing, right? We've have been having periods before we had science. So, yeah. Again, I'm not saying let's all chuck science out the window, but it comes back to this idea that some things are instinctive. And again, I keep coming back to this idea of like at least we're having the conversation. Yeah, it's better than making those decisions in private and like not. It being a bigger danger to yourself because you haven't told anyone. 

Anna: I mean, to your point about how, as you just said, being loud about these things are impactful, what feels different about the way we talk about our bodies and our period in the workplace today?

Alisha: I feel like there was a movement a few years ago of like an act of micro-feminism is not hiding your tampon when you go to the toilet at the workplace, not shoving it up your sleeve. And as I mentioned to you, a few ago someone got fired for bleeding onto their chair. So that's a few year ago. I think today, well not today, even let's say last year, maybe two years ago. The EEOC, the EEOC did acknowledge that sometimes women need to stay home because of hairy periods, miscarriage, yeah who knows why you're having a really painful period. So that acknowledgement is huge, yeah right? And there are countries around the world that have actually made period products free everywhere. I think that's Scotland. Have allowed for people to take time off because of periods and menstruation, and menstrual pain and whatever, anything associated with it. That's huge. That is huge, yeah. It's huge, I mean, for me, I come from a culture, again, I'm reminding you, where I could not even water plants. 

Anna:  I think that's huge. And I think, too, honestly, the context you just put that in is really important. Because of course, we think about like, probably in my mom's generation, always felt like talking about hormones and periods and things would lead people to not taking you seriously, would cause people not to take you seriously and I think. Thinking about that here in a very Westernized place. We felt like that was kind of oppressive, but even then comparing it to how you grew up and how, and it's kind of, I don't want to say like, like, oh, appreciate what you've got. Like, that's not what I mean at all. I think it's just kind of the, being aware of the different, like, the different contexts in which people live and how. That can really. 

Alisha: Affect what we see as progress. Oh my gosh, I have so many things to say to that. Okay, so, let's narrow it down to two things. So, yes, there was a time when feminism was, let's be like the men. 

Speaker 6: Mm-hmm. 

Alisha: We'll just play it at their game. We know we can do it. And that's what medical people were doing when they said women are little men. Just simply smaller men. And so we like suited up and we like hit our periods. Like never, you know, all the ads were like, you can use this and no one will ever know. You can wear white and like jump around. Jump around. You know, like no one would know. And like let's hide this inconvenience of our lives. Let's never ever talk about it in a way that is debilitating, right? That was feminism. That was considered. This is how we achieve progress, by hiding the female parts of ourselves, right? And we can tie it back to politicians who wear suits and act a certain way in order to appear more authoritative and appear more like men. And I think we're getting to a point today where feminism is exactly the opposite of that. It's like embracing everything that makes a woman a woman. Like girl math, let's talk about girl math. Okay, cool, you know, I'm just gonna wash my hair because of girl, like all these random ludicrous things that are like substantiated by girl math. 

Anna: Well yeah, my blonde highlights will be extended by the purple shampoo I used, thereby, that is girl mask, of extending the length of time I have between dye jobs. 

Alisha: Yeah, and like I do girl math of like when I should wash my hair. 

Anna: Yes, yes. 

Alisha: It takes so much time.

Anna: And then you're like, okay, what do I have this week? Do I need to have fresh hair for this? Literally. Exactly. Aligned. Exactly.

Alisha: Yeah, and then the fact that we're embracing that, there's no such thing as boy math, you know? We're embracing this idea of, I actually, I don't want, this is gonna sound like a humble brag, but this is not what I mean. I just met with the former Prime Minister of New Zealand, Jacinda Ardern, who she led by being emotional, by being compassionate, by being kind. She believes that that's the way that we should be leading as politicians. She's embracing a side of herself that people would argue is feminine, right? And she was like, well, I led a country and I did great. Power to her, you know? And I actually, the second thing I wanted to bring up is I wanna bring up this quote because I really, really love it. It's by Dr. Inga Winkler. She's a human rights lawyer. And she co-authored one of the seminal books on menstruation of recent times. It's called the Pelgrave Handbook of Critical Menstrual Studies. I hope you can do those. Yeah, we'll do the text thing. Okay, she says, menstruation unites the personal and the political, the intimate and the public, the physiological and the sociocultural. It either facilitates or impedes the realization of a whole range of human rights, which I think comes to what we're saying, right? What is progress? Is it embracing the side of yourself or is it hiding it? 

Anna: Do you know what's funny is, for this season of Unruly, I really wanted to focus on how I think women's conversations get labeled again as being specifically for women and how I'm like, we don't need to qualify it. But also, I kind of love what you're saying, too, if I'm interpreting correctly, the girl math. Yeah, let's have girl math, let make something for us. Maybe they're... Maybe that is what we should be doing. Yeah. Or maybe we should just stop saying should for everything. 

Alisha: Yeah, and stop apologizing. 

Anna: Yeah, yeah. 

Alisha: Like I want women's health, it comes back to what we were saying earlier, I want women's help to encompass everything. I want it to mean so much more than it means right now. I don't want it be relegated to like our reproductive organs. 

Anna: And then maybe it's better, too, for even just the women's conversations. Maybe that's just the, we are having them in the context of women's experiences. Same with how we want cardiology to be in the contest of a woman's, her health and her life, as opposed to just something separate from women entirely. 

Alisha: Yeah, as if we don't get heart attacks, you know, like, yeah. Okay yeah I would say that we should embrace it and it should just be expansive and it-

Anna: Sorry, I always do this thing too in therapy where I just kinda like sit there for a little bit I love that. 

Anna: We've been asking every guest with the name of our show is what's the most unruly thing you've done this week? 

Alisha: Unruly thing I've done this week. Oh my goodness well with the baby there's it's really hard to do anything unruly like you you just have like you your whole life revolves around nap schedules unruly okay I did not wash my hair before this I didn't do the girl I didn't do it right I didn't plan it right I'm like why do you think my hair's in a bun yeah yeah it's like like down yeah I didn't do it that's the most unruly it was it's going to get this week I don't know.

Anna: Well, thank you so much for joining us today. 

Alisha: Thank you so much. This was so fun. 

Anna: I really enjoyed the conversation, and I can't wait to see what other articles you come up with soon. 

SEGMENT: 

Anna: Okay, so we're gonna do a little segment um, that we are calling the The Unruly Tapes, stories we can't un-hear. So it's a segment where we get a story from someone with an unruly point of view. Can you give me an example or two of the most outlandish assumptions you've heard people make about women's health and the impact? 

Alisha: Let's go classic, let's go old school. That women's uteruses wander around their bodies. I did not, I have not heard that one. That's, that's legitimate. People used to think that women, like were depressed or hysterical because their uterus were just wandering around. 

Anna: That sounds like something that someone in like my intro to poetry class in freshman year of college would write. 

Alisha: Beautiful. I kind of love that. But wait, here's a kicker. Wait, I need to Google this. 

Anna: No, you're fine. I need to just make sure that this is accurate. There is so much time for Googling now. I maybe I had heard that I don't know that's it's it is very it has like an artistic-

Alisha: It's very Victorian. It is. The wandering uterus. 

Anna: I'm like, yeah, y'all were like wearing arsenic, too. So maybe maybe it really felt like they were wandering around. 

Alisha:  Yeah, okay, hold on, hold... Oh my god, hold on. No, you're so fine. The kicker is fantastic and I don't want to reveal it. 

Anna: You're like, I want I want the I want your actual face. Yeah, exactly. 

Alisha: Okay, I'm ready. I'm gonna have to grain of salt this, but all right, so.

Anna: Me again. Okay, like the whole thing? Yeah. Okay. So we're doing a segment that we call the Unruly Tapes, Stories We Can't Unhear, and it's a segment where we get a story from someone with an unruly point of view. So with your background having previously reported on women's health, can you give me an example or two of the most, I don't know, outlandish assumptions you've heard from you've heard people make about women's health. 

Alisha: We're gonna go classic. There was a time in which people believed that female hysteria, depression, fatigue, was because their uteruses were wandering around their body. That their uterus is just like, took a stroll. And the kicker is that the solution to get the uterus back in place is a vaginal massage. So essentially, they invented vibrators. The Victorians? I'm not sure, I don't even know what time period this is. But this is like, it's hilarious because women are like, yeah, sure. I'm like, oh yeah, mine's wandering around. Yeah, like my uterus is taking an unusually long stroll and I need a solution. We need it. 

Anna: We need to get her attention to get back, that's so funny. 

Alisha: I mean, okay, this dark part is that women were like put into asylum centers and it was terrible. But the outcome is that we now have vibrators. 

Anna: Now, I'm going to look up how much money the vibrator industry makes. 

Alisha: So much, so much, but okay, big grain of salt. I don't know when it was happening, when it happened. I just remember hearing this and thinking, okay, A, crazy that the uterus, it was assumed that the uterus wanders, but B, great, great. 

Anna: I mean, if our mind can wander, then maybe my uterus is wandering too. 

Alisha: I like that. 

Anna: Next time I'm not paying attention to meeting, I'll be like, oh my god, you guys, I'm so sorry, my uterus was just kind of wandering around. Yeah, and then I need the solution. True, and I'm gonna need to go because I need this solution. All right, well, I certainly can't un-hear that, so thank you for your wise insight. Um... 

Alisha: Next time you use a vibrator. 

Anna: I'll know. I used to be friends with someone who worked at D.A.M. Products, they did the whole MTA, who sued the MTA or whatever, which was super cool. Let's do one more, oh. Okay, one more goodbye and thank you. Marie-Alexa knows that I'm terrible at this. I'm not gonna like wrapping up the, I'm like, okay, bye. Yeah, same, same. Thank you so much for joining us today. This was absolutely fascinating and. I don't know, I do really hope people kind of took something away from this. 

Alisha: This was so much fun. Thank you so much for having me.  

CREDITS: 

For a transcript of the episodes and more resources, visit www DOT shopflamingo DOT com SLASH unruly podcast.

Unruly is a podcast created by me, Anna Wesche, and produced by Pineapple Street Studios in collaboration with Flamingo.

Our producer is Marialexa Kavanaugh. 

Our senior managing producer is Kamilah Kashanie. 

Our editor is Josh Gwynn. 

Our Head of Sound & Engineering is Raj Makhija . 

Our Senior Audio Engineers are Pedro Alvira and Marina Paiz.

This episode was Mixed by Pedro Alvira.

Our Executive Producer is Je-Anne Berry.

ALT: Our Executive Producer for development is Asha Saluja. 

ALT: Our executive producers are Asha Saluja and Je-Anne Berry.

Our Music is from Epidemic Sounds.

Our Project Manager is Abigail Juezan

Our Video Editor and Sound Designer is Elliott Moe

Our Art Director is Chelsea Castro

Our Animator is Abby DeWitt

And I'm your host, Anna Wesche.