Welcome to Unruly Season 2

A podcast from Flamingo and Audacy’s Pineapple Street Studios

At Flamingo, we know that women deal with a lot: the expected, unexpected, and everything in between. That’s why we created Unruly. Season 1 was all about navigating a world that loves to categorize, analyze, and discuss women’s bodies; Season 2 has the same spirit but a different bent. Instead of talking about regulation, we’re talking about conversation.

Because we believe that if women are talking about it, it’s important. Whether we’re discussing dating in a recession, the way TikTok is shaping girlhood, consumer capitalism, or how to survive that annual girls trip, we’re giving women the opportunity to be their truest, most flamboyant selves. New episodes drop on Wednesdays.

INTERVIEW INTRO: 

Anna: So, last week on our other episode, we got some insight from Elise Hu on what it's like to grow up surrounded by today's beauty standards. And today, we're moving the conversation from tweens and teens to adults. And to do that, I'm joined by Christina and Alexis Andrew-Lakis, who you might know from TikTok as the iconic lipstick lesbians. And they're here to educate and help us navigate the very, very confusing world of beauty consumerism. Welcome. Hi.

Anna: I think like before we get into the nitty-gritty, I love an origin story. And I'm kind of curious like what each of your backgrounds was before entering this space. Maybe we'll go in alphabetical order. I'll hit you up next, Christina. We'll start with Alexis. But I guess like as a product developer who's familiar with the science and what it's like seeing how the sausage gets made. You're also seeing what's kept from everyday shoppers and social media users. Like, what is that like? 

Alexis: So, like all of you listening, and like all us, we all start somewhere. And my start in beauty was more on the sales floor, specifically a retail sales floor. I worked at a department store. It was my first job. I worked for NARS Cosmetics as a makeup artist. It's kind of funny, because Christina's been pushing me recently to go back into my makeup artistry era, and I'm like resisting, because that in itself was of a time. But I say this to say that for me, it was as a make-up artist that I would flip the carton over. And I would be looking at where things were made. And early days of NARS, the vast majority of their line was made in the U.S., and I know exactly what supplier, because I even consulted for them later on in my career. And you learn these things not because you're opening a textbook, but because you are being taught by the people that have been inside the industry. 

Christina: Mm-hmm. 

Alexis: So the short answer of what was that like is I know what it's like because I was everyone that's watching the content. I wanted to know more, and I became relentless in that pursuit. And it was at my time at NARS as a makeup artist that I found FIT that it was, I was in my kind of in-between college phase where I was figuring life out. And I found a FIT, it was a cosmetics and marketing fragrance program. And I knew that this could unlock the dream of working in corporate beauty, and I'd never found a program like it. 

And while I was sitting in the classroom at FIT, I'll never forget my professors would say, look around. Everybody here, these are your peers. And one day, they're going to be your colleagues. And these are going to the people that are going be the difference between you getting a job and not. And the truth is, with such a hyper niche industry, the two people I was closest to in my class, are the two people that got me both my first and kind of most instrumental jobs as my career went on. 

And eventually, because my career led me to being more of a freelance, like regional artist. So I got to work in New York, I got to work at Henry Mandel, Barney's. It's crazy to think that all these stores are shut down, by the way.

Christina: Yeah, so true. 

Alexis: The Bleecker Street Boutique, which was like the most iconic store to ever work in as an arts employee. And that's the beginnings of me understanding texture and the nuance of formulation.

Anna: Yeah, and I think how that your background pairs so interestingly with yours, Christina, like you being someone with a background in tech and education, like have you ever been very, I guess, like almost shook by how information about the stuff we're putting in over on our bodies is relayed? Because I know that's been such an important thing for you two with Lipstick Lesbians is that education.

Christina: Portion of it. Yeah, it proliferates. I mean, so I started my career as a high school English teacher, but also I did work in retail, but not beauty retelling. My background is not beauty at all. And for me, I'm not the consumer that would look at TikTok for beauty reviews. Like that was just not, you know, but I would go to the store and I would read the marketing that would be on the gondolas, right? And I know that for sure. But I'd have always all these questions, and I'd rely on the sales associates that were there. And that goes back to what we really built the lipstick lesbians on, which is asking the right questions. Which if you go back to being an English teacher, like I hate to say it, but the two most popular teachers, you know, babe. So is the English teacher or the gym teacher? I mean, for you it's psychology, but that makes sense. I still love my English.

Alexis: I know his name. 

Christina: Is that a trope that I don't know about? Oh my god, totally. I'm like Mrs. Storer. I'm remembering. Well, you know, if you think about it, English teachers really just help young people see the world through the books that they read, right? And in many ways, I like to imagine that what we've done in the beauty industry is help people to understand themselves through the beauty products that we evaluate on our channel. Because we talk about it in such a way, especially Alexis is so talented. That it breaks down the formula, the packaging, the ingredients, but in a way that's digestible and empowers you to make the right decisions for yourself. So to relate this back with my career trajectory, after I was a high school English teacher, I decided to get my PhD in education technology because I saw the way that technology was being used in education. And it was the very beginning of it back then, like 2011, 2012, and we all know Google Classroom, and it was just the start of. Like Google Meets. Right now we all know Meets and Zooms and stuff because of COVID, but it ended up becoming mission critical, my work in education technology because of Covid, right? And helping schools get online. But long story short, after I got my doctorate and I researched basically the best ways to learn online, I really found TikTok interesting because of what you could learn on TikTok. I mean, you can, anything. Totally. And yeah, any subject you want. And at the time, the way that we started the lipstick lesbians in general is because Alexis and I were brave enough in 2019 to have a small lipstick company called Fempower Beauty. And we had trouble selling non-transfer proof lipstick during COVID. So I was like, all right, what are we gonna do? So 2021, I come home one day and I remember I just came back from work and I was Alexis, I captured it. The lipstick lesbians were lesbian that sell lipstick. I got it. 

Christina: I thought we had to talk about being lesbians because of the name. Because of the name. I though we were gonna pigeonhole ourselves right into we need to talk bout lesbian TikTok. So we started to grow a really small following on lesbian TikTok which was really interesting. But then the first time I actually asked Alexis a question that was about a beauty product, which was the makeup by Marl, which really started a virality, we went viral. And it was because we gamified it. I asked her a question that I used to see her play with her beauty product development friends during COVID, which was. Take out all these products from all around the world, let's swatch them and guess what manufacturer they are, but instead of asking her to guess the manufacturer, I asked you to guess the region of where it was made. And the people loved it. I like to believe, and I think it is true, that we really put beauty product education on the map. Where people didn't know that was an actual job and career, you can go down. I think it's fair. 

Alexis: I think it's fair to say, not even you like to believe, nobody knew product developers existed prior to us popping on platform. 

Christina: Yes, typically they couldn't discuss, obviously. And it's so funny, because I remember in 2021, even though this wasn't the intention, I wanted to find a way to synthesize Alexis as a beauty product developer and Fempower Beauty, but again, because we weren't doing anything, and I remember so distinctively researching hashtag beauty product development, and there was only one video about beauty product develop. I was like, Alexis, we should talk about this at FemPower. I remember you showing me that video. Yeah, but she's like, oh, I can't, because it's behind the scenes. I was under NDA. Yeah. 

Alexis: On any of the products I was working on that weren't our own and we weren't working on anything at the time because we had such a limited budget. Totally. 

Anna: I think that's so helpful because you can kind of stand in for your consumers, your followers, all those things because that's exactly how I feel and even the short meetings like we've had together just listening to Alexis kind of talk about these things is one, fascinating and two, I just realized how under educated I am in all of that. And one thing that I love about your guys' take on how you do this is you. Commit to this idea of evaluating a product instead of reviewing it. Could you talk a little bit about that? 

Christina: About that. Yes, that was a distinction we made early on because you always use the term evaluate right and I think that was because we didn't really watch beauty content for sure. 

Alexis: It's so interesting. It's almost like the word review triggers me. 

Anna: I mean, yeah, if someone's like, hey, your review's coming around, I'm like, no! Oh yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.

Alexis: And I say this because you can watch a movie and a movie is open for interpretation in the context of taste, of how you, is there a cinematic experience that you've had? Is there an emotion that the movie provoked? Maybe it's your favorite actor, maybe it's a genre. Obviously though, that evaluation, it's critique. 

And you have a movie critic, and they're evaluating this movie on all of these objective elements. They write the review and there's a rotten tomato scale, and we can go on and on. When you're talking about platforms, specifically, let's say TikTok, because it's arguably most popular right now, people are reviewing product. And what's really important is these people have not necessarily ever put makeup on another person. 

Let's just say the vast majority of people who are reviewing products are not makeup artists.

Mm-hmm.

Alexis:  It is one thing to be a content creator. It's another thing to a makeup artist. It's a another thing to even be a celebrity makeup artist versus an editorial makeup artist 

Alexis: Versus a makeup artist who does just content creation and only does makeup on themselves, versus a product developer, versus a chemist, and we can go on and on. But the distinction of somebody that's actually touched other people's faces is more important, in my opinion, for platforms. 

Alexis: Because this is where we start to really understand the nuance that you cultivate as both a makeup artist and a product developer of life. And I wouldn't be half the product developer I am had I not spent almost eight years in a retail environment. I know this because it forced me to understand formula in a way that isn't possible unless you've experienced it through the lens of so many other human beings. 

Anna: Yeah, well, it's also like you saying that just made me think a thought just crossed my mind I was like, I don't know how to French braid my own hair It's kind of the reverse of it. But yeah, if you're not used to You how can you properly review something if you are the only one using it? Like I mean, yes, you can review it for your own self. Exactly. If you're going if you trying to educate You have to take it a step further. Yeah 

Alexis: And there's value, there's tremendous value in the thousands of beauty content creators who review products on their faces because their following is going to see something in them. Maybe it's their hair color, skin color, eye color, and they're like, oh, I like that. I want that. Oh, that would look good on me because I look like them. That's the most important thing you should be looking for when you're connecting with a content creator outside of just the joy and pleasure of watching like a movie.

Anna: Yeah, definitely.

Alexis: And nobody's evaluating, really, on platform. Even chemists are evaluating arbitrarily in the context of a formula base, not how it sits on a person's skin. 

Anna: And then I think to that point actually, a term you've both used in the past, beauty literacy. Yes. Which I would love for you guys to break down for me. Yeah. 

Christina: Yeah, influenced very much by my high school English teacher days. I mean, yeah, there's like British literature. Well, right. I mean to me, it was very evident when we started making content and educating and it started in such a pure way and we keep our content very much that way. Even partnerships, we don't partner with brands that we don't recommend, right? And that's something that will always remain true with the Lipstick Lesbians channel. With beauty literacy, it's really about helping to elevate everyone's understanding of beauty because ultimately, if we all can understand beauty better, we can help push the beauty industry forward with what we want because we can now language what we from brands. Where before, I think people did not know how to identify even what they wanted or what they knew they liked. And we hope that, again, through our content, we get to show people this new love and appreciation for maybe things they didn't know before, and then they could now demand things. Because consumers hold power, right? And they could reclaim that power with knowledge. 

Anna: Well, also I think it's very rare for, and would be, I'm sure, a brand's dream for the consumer to tell them exactly what they want. 

Alexis: Or to understand to the level to be able to give that type of feedback that will really move the needle for product development. Brands are holding consumer studies all the time and we get to talk to brands all the time. It's what makes our experience through the industry so special because we're so closely connected on the brand side, but we're also so closely connected to the consumer, which I love personally. 

Anna: And I think one of the big things that, I think it actually could be interesting to tell you what I want people to take away from this conversation, which is like, I want to people to know they're not alone. Like to be a consumer right now feels incredibly overwhelming. And I feel like I'm being blasted on all sides by like what opinions, what steps do I add to my skincare routine? Should I get Botox? Where do I get botox? Like all those types of things. How do I preserve my glow? What is my glow, right? Maybe it's just me sweating, I don't know. And then I also just want people to be able to take away almost like two things they can change about how they approach the beauty counter or the skin care section or the next Sephora sale. Like where they can just maybe be just a little bit more tuned in. And I think with all that in mind, I have a question from like. From and for the lazy girl hive, which is what I'm a part of. Which is, I don't have, I currently don't feel like I have the time, mental, emotional bandwidth for routines with so many steps. What are two things that I absolutely should and absolutely shouldn't be doing when it comes to skincare, makeup? Well, whatever. 

Alexis: I would say exfoliation is probably one of the like most overlooked things in like a skincare routine. This could be a physical, this could be chemical, this can be something like a dermaplane like flamingo makes. Specifically because whatever you're doing, you want to really ignite that cell turnover. And I will also veil this with the fact that I'm not a dermatologist and I'm not an esthetician, but every skin type, even sensitive types, can benefit and there sensitive acids like mandilic. That will benefit from just getting rid of whatever surface debris, for lack of a better word, right, your dead skin cells that are just sitting there. Those dead skin cell are basically blockading all of your efforts. If you put a moisturizer on it's blockading that. If you a put a skin tint on it, it's going to look uneven. Even if you use powder, it is going to find the dry skin and cling to it. So that's why I chose exfoliation and it's accessible. There's ways to do it at every price point, in every category, of every budget. And it's if you do nothing else once or twice a week do that and obviously of course hydration is a beautiful supplement to that But in the makeup realm I would argue that like understanding how you want to look .

Anna: If I go into a store, Sephora, for example, and I'm looking for a foundation, what question am I asking the sales associate? Like what do I? What do I. 

Alexis: So you have you asked yourself the question first we're gonna go back to that right? My therapist is like... Did you ask yourself the questions? And and this is the point and it goes back to what Christina was saying and our superpower right now and in that what if you have this understanding so you're able to reclaim the power a brand will no longer be able to tell you here I'm gonna shove this down your throat and you're gonna like it. You know what I mean? You then are going in empowered immediately and instead of asking the Sephora rep who maybe is incentivized by a brand giveaway or again, for whatever reason, they have their personal favorite. And we love our Sephora reps. And we loved them. And we like people with strong opinions and beauty. But you are at the core of your understanding of what you like. So the first thing I'm going to do is, again, And how do you even begin to understand that about yourself when it's, say, you wake up first thing in the morning, you look in the mirror. Look at yourself, really, really for like more than 10 seconds. Brush your teeth in front of the mirror and assess. Am I shiny? Because some people wake up with like a really beautiful morning dew. That's Christina. Like a little angel baby. Like, I don't even know how this is possible. 

Anna: I'm like, did you do something to piss her off?

Alexis: It's her skin type, look at her hair, look at her nails, like her nail polish stays on longer, her hair is thicker, it grows, it's just her, it's part of her skin types. That's so interesting. Even though we're both combination skin, I don't wake up looking as radiant and fresh in the morning. I'm also a couple years older than her, so. Oh, come on. 

Anna: That's involved, too. I couldn't tell. Right? 

Alexis: The point is, do you like that look of that natural flush on your skin tone? Look at yourself after the gym. Look at yourselves. Engage with your own identity throughout the day and the esthetic. Is there a moment where you're wishing that you didn't look shiny or you want to look more matte? This is, again, it sounds- This is the evaluation. You're literally, and what's going to shock you about this practice, because that's really what it is. Suddenly you're gonna get to know yourself a little bit more deeply and thus you're actually gonna open the door to have a preference. So you're going into Sephora saying I'm really shiny by 6 p.m. And I hate that when I go to the gym I'm super shiny and I'm making this up because I actually love shine personally. I love a little glow. Right? And and then you know you can start understanding like okay you're looking for the post gym glow. Maybe that's like a 10 on a radiant scale. Or maybe it's a five, but now you're gonna start to piece together and if you want take pictures of yourself So you can have a benchmark to show the associate the esthetic you want You're gonna get much closer to a understanding yourself and be actually achieving something that you feel good in Versus I saw this image of ex celebrity or ex influencer and I want to look like that 

Anna: I also think it's interesting to, while you were saying that I was thinking, I think of the one time I've advocated myself in a beauty section, which was, I was getting my eyelashes tinted, and she really wanted to do the bottom ones. I don't like it. I don't like it, and she was like, are you sure? Really, really wanted, and I was like no, I don't want to, we got it, we out there, but it was. Uncomfortable. Uncomfortable one and two just the how in her mind, and I don't fault her for this at all, but she had she is following I guess a standard beauty standard exactly. And I what's extremely fascinating to me and I'm so excited eventually for you guys to hear this episode. We had spoken to Elise Hu. She is a NPR correspondent. We have we had an episode with her talking about The messages that tweens and teens are getting. Oh, yeah, and how they are being told what the beauty standard is and how obviously like we're talking about Beauty and how we interact with the beauty world as adults right now But of course like when you're impressionable and that younger age things are very different But I love how you guys are already coming at this as you hold the power to create your own Beauty standard now not don't don't give it to them. No, yeah. Yeah, but 

Alexis: But here's the craziest thing and this is where people I always say like beauty for me was my gateway drug to empowering myself in a positive sense like to empowering myself to ask questions not just about my face and how I want to look but what about my health what about going to the doctor's office what about if you're in a setting where you're in a corporate environment you need to advocate for yourself when you make one little promise to yourself and you keep it even if that promise is as silly as I'm gonna stick up for myself when the lady says I wanna tint your bottom, my bottom lash. 

Anna: I'm like, no. You're- You won't- 

Alexis: literally like it sounds so ridiculous and I know this but you've just stood up for yourself 

Christina:  Mm-hmm. It's advocacy.

Alexis: It's advocacy and the minute you start to stand up for yourself consistently, you'll be able to stand for yourself at work. 

Alexis: At home, with your friends, with the doctor, et cetera. And these little things, and again, while we're talking about beauty, beauty runs very deep.

Christina: I think this is the point, right? I think people in most industries and in life are looking for the easy answer, right. It's very much that question that you ask, like, what is the question I need to ask the associate, but it's no, what the question that I need to ask yourself. 

Alexis: And I can't give it to you because it's all of these experiences and as simplistic as a beauty a search for the quest I would call it right the perfect mascara lipstick I'm here to ruin everyone's day there is no such thing.

Anna: No.

Alexis: You're going to evolve if you're not growing and you're not learning and you are not evolving, what are you doing? 

Christina: And just like brands need to continue growing, learning, and evolving too, right? Brands shouldn't stay stagnant. 

Anna: Well, even with our partnership with you guys, I remember the first time you guys came in, you looked at our retail messaging and were like, oh, this might be confusing and maybe you should try switching this. And we did it. I mean, it made so much sense and sometimes it's just being open to being wrong. And it's not even being wrong, it's open. 

Christina: To change. Well, I think that a lot of people are in their own silos, brands included, and don't know how to ask the right questions at certain points, right? And I think, that's what it comes down to, right, and then we become numb and accustomed, and sometimes it just takes a little bit of perspective to show, to see the light. Yeah, I mean that's fair. 

Anna:, I want to give you guys an opportunity to call bullshit on any beauty or wellness trends.

Alexis: The danger zone. 

Anna:  Maybe it's like the raising eyebrows at like the end step in like a nightly routine or I don't know. Oh god. I think... 

Alexis: I mean, I'm thinking about like 85 different things, but recently I had a friend who's also a practicing dermatologist, with a successful practice, who sees many, many patients every week. And she was telling me that sebaceous filaments is just a made up thing, that the TikTok derm, you know, world. No. 

Anna: I'm like, no, I'm doing it. 

Alexis: And while, yes, it's sebum, and while, yes, is creates the shape of what you could arguably describe as a filament, it just like, it's like a TikTok word. And maybe it's colloquial, and maybe it urban dictionary, and maybe we're gonna just, you know, it's gonna evolve. And maybe, it is gonna become a technical term, but if you look in the dermatology, like, textbook, it doesn't, it not there. So, how does that happen? Well. There's a whole army of derms that are on platform, and I'm not speaking for them necessarily, but I've learned this. This is what we were told. This is when we've been told that aren't actually practicing dermatologists. And some of them aren't, some of are not, some of claim to be. And this goes back to how many, and this all to say, just ask questions. Do not take information as 100% face value. I'm saying you need to look for people's credentials in their bios. Or you could. You could. Or they're linked in. But you need to become more discerning to protect yourself. Not from danger but from the bullshit. 

Alexis: You are gonna be your best advocate and you're gonna sift through the information and look for people who have a real-world Experience if it's makeup that you're after and you want to become a makeup artist find someone that's practicing that's actually doing makeup on people Yeah, that's the easiest way. Yeah dermatology. Are they actually you know in office? Do they have a go to their website? Do they ever practice do they call the office that they theoretically have to see if they're booking and seeing clients like That's your first like line of defense now. These are These are extreme examples, I get it, like who's gonna actually take the time to do that. But if you're dedicated and you really wanna know, that's the way you're gonna learn the truth about this expertise. And that's up to you to do. 

Anna: Do you have any bullshit to call Christina? I don't. I mean, you're like, just do it. 

Christina: Okay, I got one, actually. You got one? I inspired you? You did. There's a trend going on right now where you take out your Elf Halo glow and you put all the lip butter bombs inside and you create one big lip gloss. Whoa. And it's like. So confusing to me, and I ask you this, I was like when the cushion trend happened, and they take the empty compacts, and they put all the foundation, and they mix it up. But like this keeps on happening over and over, and I don't know, I guess it's like cushy and cute, because it reminds you of like when you were a kid and you put things together, so I can see the novelty of it. Yeah, you know, but on the other hand, it's really like, this is what's a trend. Like some things that go viral just don't make sense, but it's just because it's click-baity, it's let's see what happens. Or like when you add water to a foundation, you put a whip in it. Oh, that that that drives me crazy. At least look right. And then the silicone water thing. I mean, now I'm thinking of so many. There's so many There's so many. 

Alexis: I think, yeah, when people take the foundation and they put it in water, what you're doing is diluting your money. Just burn it. Yeah, it's crazy. You're literally ruining the foundation by diluting it. It's like when you order. Have you seen? 

Christina: Have you seen this? They take foundation they put it in a beaker or a cup and then they take like a frother and they add water to the foundation and then they froth it. And then it like becomes like a whip. I'm like, girl, that's

Anna: Hey girl, that's for coffee. 

Christina: It's very interesting. It's like people are making concoctions is part of the series is what I'm talking about. 

Anna: Well, to what you just mentioned about putting on the lip glosses, did you say, in one container? And then what you brought about the foundation. I mean, how expensive are these products? That's a waste. Yeah. I know. 

Alexis: It's wasteful. It's true. And look, I mean, maybe they want to discover shade and it's an exploration 

Christina: Which I think it's childhood play. That's how I interpret it, and I could understand that. Me too. It brings up this concept, right, of like trends and what drives trends, right? And like what are people really intrigued by when these things happen, right. And like in some way, if you look at the unspoken thing that's being, that's whistle-blown in that kind of content, it's like if you do this, you'll have a superior product, but that's not the case because if you are a child or if you're someone that doesn't have the beauty literacy, you may think, oh, I can just do this and I'll have the superior thing and I just put it in this package, but that is not necessarily true. 

Alexis: The play that it's inspiring, I would appreciate it if... It was a product line or something. Yeah, I guess I'd appreciate it more, again, this is about creativity and self-expression. But I think it's about clicks and virality. Yes, it is. So there's the intention behind it.

Anna: So running back to beauty literacy, which we chatted about a little bit already. And you kind of touched on this a little bit when you talked about, for example, calling up the dermatologist's office. So how to do research on creators. But what are the key research steps you recommend taking when determining. Like, whether something's getting your product makeup is right for you. Is it an ingredients-focused question? Obviously, we talked about what you want to look like, what you get out of it. But even getting down, I'm flipping the bottle over. I'm looking at the back. I see something. Phenoxyethanol. Yep, I like something. I was not good in chemistry, so I'm glad. Thank God, true. [00:48:11][50.6]

Alexis: [00:48:13] I think that this is where things get really overwhelming. So one, give yourself grace. Two, it goes back to asking yourself some questions, right? I'm someone who's hypersensitive, which is ironic too because I use a lot of different products. When I say I'm hypersensitive, my immune system is overreactive. My amazing functional medicine doctor said, you're like a little sensitive flower, Alexis. I'm like, I don't wanna be a sensitive flower. But I am. So know yourself. Are you someone whose skin is overreactive, right? Less is always gonna be more. Even just less, like less in the sense of less product that you're using. And there are retailers that are trying to do things for you to streamline this. And just like there's no one single simple answer, like for example, like we can't tell you, just shop the brands that are clean. It's so nuanced and the depths of this are so deep and the truth is that whether or not you're getting this and you're thinking about like detoxing your whole life because if I were to sit here and tell you, okay, start detoxing the beauty products that you're using that have X in it, for example, like microplastics.

Alexis: The reality is that we have to at some point acknowledge that no matter what. You're doing. I'm not saying be oblivious to what you're putting in or on your body, which we didn't even get to the food that you're eating and consuming. What I'm inviting you to do is to ask questions again and understand that everything you touch technically in this world has an impact on you and your physical health and your longevity and all of that. But at the end of the day, there's not one way to answer that question in the simple way, and the best thing I feel, and this is the thing I tell myself, yes, it's important to understand what you're putting on your body, but it's way more important to make sure you're detoxing. And this is coming from someone who has chronic health issues. So that's my area of focus, personally. Thanks for watching! 

Anna: Well, I actually really like what you saying. This made me think a little bit about even going to the doctor's office. I think women advocating for themselves in the doctor office. I find that the best way for me to do that is to write down my questions before we ask questions, as you said. But I write them down beforehand, because I think when I get in there, I freeze up. I know I'm not the expert in the room. I'm the expert on me, probably, hopefully. Yeah, but I'm not the expert on How the body works and things like that.

Alexis: I have a spreadsheet. I have the spreadsheet. It has four major columns. Every year I update this spreadsheet. The four major column. What year, what are my symptoms, and what's the key takeaway I've gotten from the doctor or practitioner I've gone to see. Have your symptoms cataloged, have your understanding of yourself and what you need walking out of there to feel good about your copay or whatever you spent. 

Christina: And the same goes for Sephora, is what you're saying. 

Alexis: And the same goes for Sephora 

Alexis: Like the truth is that like I have lived through the same issue personally with friends, with family where I haven't confronted a boundary. And that's the same boundary that I didn't set with that appointment that I was afraid to show up for. 

Anna: The boundary I set with my eyelash lead. Literally. That boundary.

Alexis: [00:56:09] And it's the boundary thing, if you don't learn it. For me, my biggest lesson this year is this boundary lesson. And I keep going through scenario after scenario, and I'm like, there it is. Boundaries. There it is again. If I look back in my notes section from 10 years ago, there's gonna be a note from me in therapy. Talk about boundaries. Like, it'll be there. This, even though I know this isn't like a therapy podcast, but it's about, for me, whether we're on our platform and you're taking away the recommendation about the Prada eyeliner, or you're understanding that there should even be you questioning eyeliners, like, I'm happy if you're asking questions, and you are getting to know yourself more intimately.

Anna: Anyways, back to being ruly? Okay, so I think talking about beauty and wellness industry, the beauty and wellness- I think talking about the beauty and wellness industry is so tricky because we want to embody body neutrality, which is one of Flamingo's big messages that we try to share with our community. And you can say, obviously, you do your role, do whatever you want, that type of mentality. But that attitude sort of feels like it brushes a lot of little things under the rug that we should be calling out, meaning like, between letting people be totally autonomous and also naming some of the invisible forces that are driving us to buy certain products and do certain things. So yes, it's you do you, but also why do you want to do it? Maybe it's asking why. 

Alexis: Of course, why is my favorite question? 

Anna: I feel like this turned into a therapy video. And I think it's fine. 

Alexis:  How's everyone feelin'? Are we good? No, just mental health check-in. Who's triggered? 

Anna: I mean, our appearance is so tied to how we feel and our mental health, and that sometimes that's just the way it is. And I'd honestly rather us speak about it that way than pretending it's not. Yes. Yeah. 

Alexis: There's, I have so many things that are jumping in my brain. I just, I'm someone who, when I was younger, was old, like I can distinctly remember 10 different examples of literally this word. It's a three-letter word, it's my least favorite word. It's the word fat, and being called fat. And I'm sure like 95 people are triggered right now listening to this, because, you know, why are little, and I was young, I mean, whatever. I'm talking like second grade, fourth grade. Every year, there's at least one shame-induced, aggressive moment that this happened. And even, I just said that out loud, I could feel my whole body just like. It's a physical reaction. It's physical, visceral reaction. And you know, Christine and I have spoken about this word, she knows it's a trigger for me. And you now, I'm someone who always externally seems so confident, I would say. At least for people that know me or have known me. And it really, the type of therapy I've been doing recently, and I only discovered this through asking questions, is somatic. Because when I have that feeling inside of my body that I just described that I had when I said that word out loud, I have to understand all those moments that that happened to me. Why did I feel that way? Where did it come from? It's external. Why are those young kids wanting to say that to me? Well, they learned it somewhere, right? And collectively, there is no resolution to this, but I made a promise to myself that I'm gonna say the word, I'm going to have this conversation, even if it's uncomfortable, and I don't like saying the word and I like talking about this experience. But what I what I do ultimately want to say about body neutrality and like you do you like that's not gonna help you It's not because my whole life. I was told well keep you know, keep your chin up high And what do you care that if that person said that to you? They're just a bully. Well, guess what? You still are gonna feel it in your stomach. You still care, yeah. You still cared, it's still gonna hit you. So today the message is, get curious about that sensation in your tummy. Talk to it. Literally, it sounds ridiculous, just like a lot of things we said today, but just acknowledging that you're having a sensation and identifying where it is, is a significantly better step in a direction towards healing than going and talking to your friend and just talking shit about that asshole that called you fat. Whether it was, sorry I said the word asshole. I was doing so good though. You can say whatever the fuck you want. Yeah. So I think, right, the somatic piece, it's the mind-body connection to bring it back into beauty. I release these sensations when I'm putting my makeup on. I let it go. 

Anna: That's very beautiful. 

Anna: My next question then for each of you, what was the most unruly thing you did this week? 

Alexis: Mmm, I'm laughing. 

Christina: Why are you laughing?

Alexis: Um.

Anna: That means you have an answer. 

Alexis: No, I'm laughing because I'm like Christina's unruly thing that she does. Maybe you'll answer for me 

Anna: Okay, I like this game. 

Alexis: Is that she will just go to sleep without the alarm on. Oh yeah. No alarm. That is unruly. No alarm! 

Christina: That's not true. I set my alarm. I did. I just said it later than you and you don't hear it. 

Alexis: I know we're being silly, but like it's it's you know so funny. It is funny 

Christina: All right, the unruly thing Alexis does is, I mean, I kind of love it though, we're ordering Uber Eats like crazy right now because we just moved into our new home. It's aggressive. You have to try everything. I know. We're like so excited in this neighborhood. We're just like being very unruly and ordering all the things. 

Alexis: Sometimes we're double ordering from the same restaurant in a day. Well, because we found a place we really love. So now it's going to be the unruly thing. 

Christina: It's just like American, but it's like actually a lot like it's it's like a mix. 

Alexis:  It's like dig in meets sweet green meets like the best coffee shop you can think of. It's really like, it's a problem. Coming out to New Jersey, we'll all go. No, I mean in all seriousness though, like I felt like I was being unruly yesterday at 5 o'clock when we didn't keep working. 

And we went out and we had time. 

Christina: But it was the most root-leaving we could do. 

Alexis:  But in that and that's the poetic irony of it like it's like and then we got gelato you know because why not yeah right like and this was just we just had a day on a Monday we had a little date on a monday cuz great you got to get out of your head you gotta get out of the routine you gotta go to the house like sometimes. 

Anna:  I'm like, Gelato, you guys are crazy. Yeah. Like. 

Speaker 2: On a Monday afternoon, I know. This is what monogamous lesbians do. They go wild. This is a teaching podcast. 

RED FLAG/GREEN FLAG SEGMENT: 

Anna: In the words of Charlie XCX, sometimes it's so hard to be a girl. And we touch. In British Vogue. What's in my bag? Well, no one knows. Exactly that. Bring it out. What are your top red flags to look out for when determining whether a new beauty or wellness suggestion is for you? If it's absolute. 

Christina: They speak in absolute. 

Alexis: There is no absolute in these. There's a billion, you know, over a billion people in this world. 

Christina: Creaseless concealer, bullshit. 

Alexis: Very true that that's bullshit. Your skin creases, thus anything you put on top of it will also crease, unless your skin does not crease because you've done something surgically to prevent that from happening, which even then I still think it's gonna crease because your face moves. Or you're just getting Botox every week and you're freezing your face. And your face truly does not move. Correct, which is where again, we can't be absolute. You see where there's still a nuance. 

Christina: There's so much nuance and that's what we pride ourselves in unpacking in our channel, right? Which is all the nuance that could exist and it's hard to do that, right because you can't hit everything But we'll hit the high level points so that at least the conversation is colored with perspective So you have the information to arm you to make the choice, right what's a green flag? 

Alexis: People that basically are inviting you into like a bubble of love and joy and happiness in the sense that green flag because we increasingly need that in this landscape, in my opinion.

Christina: People that make you happy. 

Alexis: People that make you, I watch, I follow, like, Ema on the Brain, I don't even know if that's her handle, but it makes me happy because, we're gonna add a little bit on the bottom. She makes me happen because she's teaching me about the connection my brain makes to joy. 

Alexis:  I'm learning. For me, if I'm leaning something, I can provide value consistently to people that are watching, you know? And again, we may have stumbled into this role of these TikTok creators, accidentally these content creators, but if I am not helping somebody, whether it was at the makeup counter when I was 19 that I started or now, I'm just not as fulfilled personally. So it goes back to that, like just green flag, is someone helping you learn? 

Anna: So almost like Green Flag is community. 

Alexis: Community, yeah, community, and it's about you. It's not about them. It's gotta be about you, the people listening. Your community, not the creator themselves. No, that makes a lot of sense.

EPISODE END/CREDITS

For a transcript of the episodes and more resources visit www DOT shopflamingo DOT com SLASH unruly podcast.

Unruly is a podcast created by me, Anna Wesche, and produced by Pineapple Street Studios in collaboration with Flamingo.

Our producer is Marialexa Kavanaugh. 

Our senior managing producer is Kamilah Kashanie. 

Our editor is Josh Gwynn. 

Our Head of Sound & Engineering is Raj Makhija . 

Our Senior Audio Engineers are Pedro Alvira and Marina Paiz.

This episode was Mixed by Pedro Alvira.

Our Executive Producer is Je-Anne Berry.

ALT: Our Executive Producer for development is Asha Saluja. 

ALT: Our executive producers are Asha Saluja and Je-Anne Berry.

Our Music is from Epidemic Sounds.

Our Project Manager is Abigail Juezan 

Our Video Editor and Sound Designer is Elliott Moe

Our Art Director is Chelsea Castro

Our Animator is Abby DeWitt

And I'm your host, Anna Wesche.