A new podcast from the award-winning body hair and care brand Flamingo, hosted by author, curator, and critic Kimberly Drew. Each week on Unruly, we unpack the quiet ways women’s bodies are commodified, defined, and regulated by social media, the medical profession, the beauty industry, and more. Then we name them, out loud — because information is power, and your body is your business. New episodes drop on Wednesdays.
Episode 3 Transcript | Body Language
[MUSIC IN]
RACHEL: So like in the 1500s, you have this French anatomist. He dissects the clitoris and he names it the shame member. In Latin textbooks you have the word pudendum, which again means like the shame part. And that is still in textbooks today and it means the vulva. Like I had to ask, why is this pattern happening where there's a connotation of shame to the female genitals specifically? And it's in, like, everyday language and it's in medical textbooks.
KIMBERLY DREW: Sometimes, I find that even saying the word vagina can be difficult. Sometimes, reducing our bodies to being too anatomy-focused can be exclusive, it can be confusing, and culturally…. our society is just not that good at it. But there is actually a reason why so many of us feel this way. We were not taught how to accurately talk about our bodies. And this actually has long term effects. The language that we use matters.
Today, we're going to discuss how the medical field has kept women and those assigned female at birth in the dark about their own bodies for generations. How has a lack of information and an influx of misinformation impacted women’s understandings of our pleasures, our pain, and ourselves?
I’m your host Kimberly Drew, and from Flamingo: this is Unruly. Where we take the quiet ways women’s bodies are commodified, defined, regulated and we name them – out loud. We wanna educate and support each other. Because your body is your business.
This is Episode 3: Body Language
Today, I’m joined by Rachel E. Gross, a science journalist and author of the book “Vagina Obscura: An Anatomical Voyage” which tells the story of how early anatomists mapped women’s bodies and the current movement to reclaim them.
Kimberly: Here we are. Welcome to Unruly.
Rachel: Ooh, I love that title. Thank you Kimberly.
Kimberly: Isn’t it good?
Rachel: It’s so good.
Kimberly: So, in the most simple terms, can you tell us what you study and why you study it?
Rachel: Sort of my tagline is that I study reproductive and sexual health, and it's important to me that there's a distinction because for too long the female body, for lack of a better word, has been considered this vessel for baby making for reproduction. And that, I have found in my reporting, leaves out so much like all of these organs that we call reproductive organs. And the ones I tend to look at are the uterus, the ovaries, fallopian tubes, the vagina, the vulva. There's a big difference. And the clitoris, my good friend, and how we've had this kind of skewed and narrow lens on them as being only organs of pregnancy and reproduction, whereas actually they're involved in everything from immunity to overall health to, of course, sexuality and pleasure. So I tried to reframe our anatomy, the body parts that in this case, about half the planet has to help people look at their bodies as more dynamic and resilient and powerful than they perhaps did before.
Kimberly: Love. Yeah, I'm just like, ‘Yes, more of that. More of that.’ Because there is a conversation to be had about these really narrow definitions that are also long standing. Right? So how do we contend with the archival usage of these words and also how we in a current moment are redefining them? You wrote this really fab article about vaginal atrophy and the history of that nomenclature for The New York Times. And it was, it was really quite stunning to see how – there's just a slipperiness in language, and I wonder if we could talk a bit about what effect language has on quote unquote “women's care” on these bodies and how they are regulated.
Rachel: I love that question because I am obsessed with the language that we use to talk about our bodies versus sometimes the language that medicine uses to talk about our bodies. And vaginal atrophy was a really interesting case. There's so much to be said about menopause and how we are redefining and reimagining this like crucial stage of life. But if you look closely at the language, it's often reflecting cultural assumptions of how women and people with these organs are thought to wither away or, you know, shrivel up. And you hear things like the ovaries exhaust themselves as in they run out of eggs, which is not true in so many ways. And another thing you hear is that you'll experience, quote, “vaginal atrophy,” which is just the worst term anyone could hear. And when you look further into it, it kind of suggests that you can't please an assumed male partner. Like, there's so many assumptions baked into what might initially appear to be this neutral medical term. So the language of menopause is all this language of sort of the loss of imagined womanhood. And it struck me that it's one of these kind of turning points in a lifetime where this script about what it means to be female, what it means to be a woman, is put upon you in a way that is bound up with medicine.
Kimberly: And so how does a term like vaginal atrophy in these contexts affect the care that people are able to receive.
Rachel: Yeah. So another really wild thing I learned was the thing that causes vaginal effects with menopause is lower levels of estrogen and other hormones. And it's not like there are only receptors for those hormones in your vagina. They're actually like all over – your bladder and your urinary system, for example. So a lot of older people get a ton of UTIs, which, like, as a frequent UTI experiencer, like, is very annoying and can actually be, like, quite devastating in older people. But it's actually related to the lack of estrogen and it's something that menopause treatment can treat. And so many people don't realize this. You know, I didn't realize this. Many, like, sources for my story, emailed me to be like, ‘I had no idea.’ So basically, all those people having UTIs and bladder issues, they don't realize that they could be getting treatment for that. And so they're often going undiagnosed. And the symptoms they're told to expect from menopause just don't include a major one. I've also heard that patients feel like they can only bring up a problem like this if it affects their sex life, which is presumed to be something like heterosexual and penetrative. Like if I'm having trouble with sex, then I should seek out treatment. But if not, if it's just discomfort, literally putting on my clothes or like sitting, then I should just deal with it.
Kimberly: There's this term in Black Studies called social death, and it's this moment where once you're leaving the window of reproductive health, which is, what is it, 15 to 49?
Rachel: That's right. Yeah.
Kimberly: And you're like, first of all –
Rachel: My childbearing years.
Kimberly: Right, like, whole other conversation to be said about those two windows of pregnancy and possibility of such and how those decisions are made, because, of course, they exist in these larger infrastructures, which is why women's issues are these intersectional things. But there is this, this moment of almost like a sunsetting of your possibility and your utility in society.
Rachel: Yes, that's right, exactly. And like a direct consequence of that is that for so long medicine has not prioritized you after that sunsetting – I love that term – because, like you said, it's like because your reproductive system is no longer doing what it was supposed to be doing. You've kind of outlived your usefulness and you're just around, but you're not really a priority, which is absolutely wild. And another thing that really, really bugs me is that, in the past, hysterectomy used to be a default solution to so many issues with your uterus, and particularly if you're past those, like, reproductive years that we're talking about, because the assumption in medicine was, ‘Well, if it's not doing anything or it's already done its purpose, just take it out.’ And like, when would you ever remove a healthy organ from your body? Especially because we don't know everything it's doing when it's not pregnant. We already know that it's like regenerating every month that it's involved in the immune system. So who knows how it's supporting our health?
Kimberly: Right. And there's so much of this conversation about these normalized views of how our bodies "should" be and what makes our bodies valuable, vital, and, quote unquote, “healthy,” and that’s deeply terrifying. Like I'm thinking about the corrective surgeries that happen to intersex youth just because they aren't born with quote unquote “typical” male or female sex characteristics.
Rachel: Exactly. Yeah. And that's, that's a great example. That's exactly what I mean of how, you know, I say medicine, but obviously medicine absorbs the culture, the prevailing culture of the society around it. And so when you're getting medically directed surgeries to put you into the box of male or female, you know, that's society's anxiety about anyone who threatens that binary. And so the really ironic thing about those surgeries, which just to let listeners know, they're often called normalizing surgeries and they're meant to make genitals that don't look what you expect, female or male genitals to look like, to look, quote, normal. And very, very often it's to create female looking genitals. And it can also involve removing gonads, which means essentially sterilizing people for the rest of their life. And then they'll require hormones the rest of their life or have pretty drastic health effects. And, like, those practices which are finally coming to light – thank God – they really show that medicine is invested in keeping those assumptions alive, because by saying ‘normalizing,’ you're saying, ‘well, there's a natural state of being that's having men and women.’ However, there's a whole category of people that problematize this, but if we just erase them, then we can then again assert that there are only two categories and this is natural. So you're having to like, do this really drastic intervention to keep this myth alive.
Kimberly: There are these other binaries, right, that exist of the difference between how bodies operate on a cultural level and norms. Cultural norms happen, but then also medical norms and the tension between those two poles. Because so many of the dialogues around hormone therapy, self-identification, self-determination through these lenses – they're just banging around in a can together, for lack of a better phrase.
Rachel: Yes, Yes. And one thing I really try to do in my work and in my book is to unmask some of those assumptions that you're talking about, like for hormones, for example. You know, at one point, science decided that estrogen was the female hormone and that testosterone was the male hormone, and that their effects therefore were, like, on the one hand, estrogen literally comes from estrus, which means like a frenzy, as if induced by a fly. So basically, like this craziness that's supposed to come with your period and testosterone, of course, is like the manly, strong…. Anyways, my point is like feminist scholars have really unmasked these myths and shown that these hormones actually have, like, body-wide effects and they're necessary in all bodies. And like, you can't just assign them a gender. That's absolutely absurd. And one thing I learned that was crazy was there are male bodies that don't absorb estrogen. And as they grow like their bones don't close so they can grow, like, more than seven feet tall, and they have like no bone closure. And they had, like, serious problems because estrogen is an essential hormone in all bodies.
Kimberly: You've written about how we've replaced the term impotent in men's health with the term erectile dysfunction. How did that language change happen and what role did Big Pharma play?
Rachel: Yeah, so it's funny, I often try to avoid making a direct comparison between the penis and part of the female reproductive system, just because I feel sometimes it can be not useful or, like, reinforce a binary. But in this case there was this amazing example. We literally had a term impotence which men found offensive and they felt really bad and shamed by it because it's super moralizing and not scientific. And so medicine was like, ‘Let's rebrand this. Our patients are offended, which means they're not coming to us with their problems. They don't trust us. They can't bring it up.’ That's the thing. Like when you have shaming language, it means that patients are going to hide their problems and not seek treatment.
Kimberly: We're gonna unpack exactly how the medical profession has talked about women's bodies for generations in just a moment. Normally, this is where you’d hear an ad – and, honestly, maybe you’d skip through it. But instead, we’ve got a story from a nonprofit that supports women's bodily autonomy and mental health. It’s one of the organizations that Flamingo donates to as part of its mission to “keep your body in mind.”
Kimberly: Ok Rachel. We can’t truly understand how deep seated some of this language is around women’s bodies without going back to the beginning and that Greek physician, Hippocrates.
Rachel: Yeah. I mean, as far as we have records for, that sort of one of the places that we consider like modern Western medicine beginning, which is just to say there's a lot of medicine going on that's not Western. And this was one really influential strain of thought that ended up making its way to, for instance, Europe and America. And so Hippocrates, in that time, he was not looking at any actual women's bodies. He literally said, ‘I only know what midwives have taught me.’ And nevertheless he did decide to name the genitals and he named them ancient Greek for ‘the part for which you should be ashamed’ or ‘the shame part.’ And that was for men and women, to be fair. So, you know, equality. But if you continue to follow these terms, you notice that the shame terms are generally attached to female bodies. So like in the 1500s, you have this French anatomist, he dissects the clitoris and he names it ‘the shame member.’ And in Latin textbooks you have the word pudendum, which again means like ‘the shame part.’ And that is still in textbooks today. And it means the vulva, which we have a great term for. So why do we need to add the shame parts, too? And then if you look in a lot of other languages, like in German, you have the schamlippen, which means ‘the shame lips’ and that's ‘labia.’ And this continues today. So, like, I had to ask, why is this pattern happening where there's a connotation of shame to the female genitals specifically and it's in like everyday language and it's in medical textbooks.
Kimberly: And I think what is particularly wild is just that we're socialized from a very young age in it, and I wonder if you could talk about specifically how we talk to young people with vaginas.
Rachel: Yeah. So I got, like, so fed up, but also fascinated by the language we use, including, like, to teach kids, that I ended up making this, like, Venn diagram where, like, one of them is like flowery, delicate words, you know, like: your flower, your rosebud. And one of them is what I call Voldemort words, which is not to promote, you know, our favorite TERF’s beliefs, but it's literally like, I will say anything to avoid saying this word. So we'll call it “between the legs,” “down there,” “your nether regions,” “your private parts.” And that's what a lot of parents might default to for kids. But I guess to think about your question a little more, the way we talk to kids, you know, sex ed is changing in really incredible ways and it's really confronting how incredibly binary it's been, and there's a lot of really cool gender-inclusive sex ed materials coming out. But there is sort of this bent in much of this country and the – like, what I was taught growing up was basically, ‘Okay, you're hitting puberty, you need to worry about, don't get pregnant, don't get an STD, and at some point you're going to start bleeding and you're going to be wearing white pants. So like, be afraid. Yeah.
Kimberly: And deodorant. Let's not – let us not forget deodorant. Sorry.
Rachel: Oh, my God. The hair everywhere. No, I mean, there's many, many other negatives that were conveyed to me very strongly. But all those things are like, this is what you should be afraid of. These are things you're susceptible to and like, these are ways your body could go wrong or betray you. And there is no wonder or curiosity or pleasure in that view. And so it's no wonder that, like you're saying, we're taught to either hate or fear that part of our bodies or pretend it isn't there. Or taught that like you need someone else in the room in order to enjoy that part of your body. Like, I just want to see a landscape where– I mean, I always bring up Miss Frizzle and the Magic School Bus because that's what I grew up with. But I want like that attitude of like, ‘Well, let's explore and see what's around here and think it's weird and cool and unruly, but not terrifying because it's part of us.’ And like, every person should be empowered to like, look at and touch and explore and learn about their body.
Kimberly: And speaking of pleasure and speaking of language and even the association of pleasure with this bodily organ, but now we get to talk about the clitoris. What do we know now about the clitoris that we didn't know before? And what's the impact of this new information?
Rachel: Ooh, I'm so glad you asked. Well, thanks to some really cool female scientists who were dissatisfied by the training they got in medical school. We now know that the clitoris is ten times bigger than we thought it was. I call it this, like, penguin spaceship shape because it's like, basically got two arms that flare out and two bulbs like tulip bulbs beneath and essentially interacts with, like, every part of your pelvis. You're like literally sitting on part of the bulbs when you're sitting down. So the bulbs encircle the vagina and the urethra and the arms like flare out against the pelvic bones. And those are all erectile tissue, exactly homologous to the penis. So you get clit erections, and so you might notice next time you become aroused, which is pretty cool. And the clitoris is felt through the vagina walls. So the idea of that vaginal orgasm is just generally the clitoris doing its thing, being felt in a different part of your body. The part that you can see and feel like the nub or whatever is just less than 10% of the entire organ. So it's called an iceberg organ often because it's powerful, it's like this unseen empire that's hidden beneath sand. It means a lot for medical procedures as well, because you have to make sure to protect those nerves and all that erectile tissue if you're doing anything down there.
Kimberly: One of the things that I learned – today years old – is about what actually the G-spot is. And I wonder for those like me who are completely ignorant, though, engaging with it, if you could [laughs] tell us what actually the G-spot is.
Rachel: Yeah, no, that's the thing. We can learn all about our own bodies. That doesn't mean like we need, like, the medical terms or whatever to validate our experience. But I too was very confused about the G-spot because I grew up reading all these women's magazines that were like, ‘Find your G-spot had this amazing orgasm that's, like ,super different and stronger,’ and they made it sound like a mythical, like, button you could press. So the same scientist who figured out how big and powerful the clitoris is also wanted to see if there was any, like, basis for that. And so it turns out that the G-spot is like the back of the clitoris where the bulbs and the arms all come together. So there's like different erectile tissues, there are some glands, and for some people it might feel different or more stimulating, but it just totally depends on your anatomy. So again, the idea of that like mythical button is ridiculous.
Kimberly: On that note as well, to stay in the realm of medical conversations around these organs. On Unruly, one of our taglines is your body, your business. And I think that there is a conception of that that could be about, like, you in this capital structure, like your business. And we do talk about those issues. But of course, your body being your business as this thing that you can mind yourself. And for those who are listening, I wonder if you could share some advice, some learnings.
Rachel: There is a dynamic that can happen in the doctor's office that we are all susceptible to, including my friends who are doctors who go to the doctor, where they're sort of an authority figure and you're sort of the patient and – not always like there are amazing doctors, but sometimes it's not, it's like frowned upon to ask too many questions or to bring in your own research, which is super important to do, and you should do it. And so it is hard to fight that dynamic. And I just kind of want to acknowledge that it's not your fault if you find yourself not– like being worried about addressing all the questions you want or bringing up something that's really bothering you but that you feel ashamed about, or that maybe it's not worth bringing up. So there's that. Honestly, a lot of people I know have had a lot of success having someone in the doctor's office with them if they can. And there's sort of this idea of a medical doula, someone whose job is to advocate for you and maybe like have your list of questions there. You know, this isn't about individual doctors who are doing their best, but because of our capitalist system, most doctors have the 15 minutes with you. And so they just need to like, check off their list. And, you know, if you need an IUD, they're going to recommend the most common one. They're going to do what is most efficient and easiest for them and, unfortunately, it's sometimes on you to disrupt that and to say, like, ‘Maybe I have concerns about this IUD’ or ‘I have questions or what are the other options,’ or ‘Can you direct me to some articles?’ You can literally ask them to send you research. You know, doctors worth their salt are actually keeping up on research, reading journals and will have that.
Kimberly: I want to zoom out again to language. What are some of the things in terms of the way that we talk about women's bodies over time that need to change?
Rachel: So I think one of the most obvious things is not about specific language, but it's this underlying assumption that that we've talked about that if you've got a uterus, your body is meant for making kids, that that's something that you want to do at some point in your life, something you can do. And that comes with all the other baggage. Like once you're done with that, if you did it, then your uterus and your body is no longer that useful or that interesting to medicine. And I do think that we all perpetuate this in a way when we ask our kids to have grandkids for us and expect that they're going to do that. You know, I really wish we would deemphasize that. And, you know, the subtle ways that I see it are when you're asked on forms, like, “Are you of reproductive age.” “Are these your childbearing years?” I mean, the direction medicine is going in is more patient-centered and is basically asking, what are your goals? What do you want out of your body and your health? And that's the way it should be. Just as, I think, as a society we’re unlearning the assumptions we make about someone's gender identity and how they prefer to think of themselves, we should also unlearn people's reproductive goals.
Kimberly: I love that. What are some ways that those interacting with this podcast can expand their own understanding of their anatomy and not fall into the idea, one of which – largely medicine – has taken, that their body is a mystery.
Rachel: Yeah, like we can't control all the messages and materials that we get about our bodies, but I think we can seek out more empowering narratives and information. And so there are a few that have really helped me. Books like Come As You Are by Emily Nagorski, artwork like Sophia Wallace's “clitoris sculptures, community experiences like Fem X, which is a Berkeley-originated community course on sexuality. These are all things that are happening that you can find.
Kimberly: Thank you so much for being here.
Rachel: Thank you for such a thoughtful conversation and for getting the word out there. I so appreciate it.
Kimberly: Of course. And on that note, for people who are interacting with this podcast, where can we follow your work? How can we learn more about what you're up to?
Rachel: Oh, yeah. Well, I continue to write lots more about the cool shit we're discovering about all bodies. I'm writing a column for The New York Times that's about medical language, its origins, how it affects patients and doctors. And you can follow me doing that stuff on Twitter. I'm @rachelegross, and I'm on Instagram @gross_out. And I have a website, rachelegross.com.
Kimberly: It’s wild to me how much women’s bodies have been misunderstood and how that’s often left us in the dark. And even today, we still bump up against outdated ideas and shaming language. We can’t undo that history. But, we can make an effort to learn more about our own anatomy. We can share resources with friends and family and we can even bring this knowledge with us into the doctor’s office. And in all of these small actions we can become a bit more Unruly.
I’m Kimberly Drew… for a transcript of the episodes and more resources visit www.shopflamingo.com/unruly podcast.
Unruly is a podcast created by Anna Wesche and produced by Pineapple Street Studios in collaboration with Flamingo. Our associate producer is Marialexa Kavanaugh. Our lead producer is Natalie Brennan. Our mid-episode profiles are produced by Sophie Bridges. Our managing producer is Kamilah Kashanie. Our editor is Darby Maloney. Our Head of Sound & Engineering is Raj Makhija. Our Senior Audio Engineers are Pedro Alvira and Marina Paiz. This episode was Mixed by Pedro Alvira. This episode was mixed by Marina Paiz. Our Assistant Audio Engineers are Jade Brooks and Sharon Bardales who also gave scoring assistance. Our Executive Producers are Je-Anne Berry and Aggi Ashagre. Our Music is from Epidemic Sound.
